Originally Posted by Liztress

I thought that, though it's not really shown or vital to playing any of the entries in the series, the stories in the Ace Attorney series were connected.

That's what I meant. I apologize for the confusion. <:3c

CK, Mogeko Castle is a Puzzle Horror RPGMaker game in the style of Ib and Ao Oni. It's about a girl who takes her train home too far and ends up in a pocket dimension, where the mysterious and imposing Mogeko Castle exists. It's basically a VN with some puzzle elements.

Oooh~ That sounds interesting! :o Thank you for the recommendation, then. xD

(I kind of feel like the puzzle aspect will keep me from freaking out. I mostly don't play horror games because I can't handle jumpscares or truly scary atmospheres. I stopped playing a game once because I noped my way out when.... Actually, let me C&P that.)

DARK FALL: The Journal, caught my eye.

Here's the blurb:

"Hmmm..." I think, remembering back to my first semester at college during the finals season - stinting myself of sleep and study-time in order to play "The 11th Hour", which was a similar sort of game. Sorta.

So I pick it up, thinking it sounds like fun. Cha-ching.

I indulge myself in a nap, and thusly do not get the computer until it is dark. So I start to play "Dark Fall: The Journal". In the dark. With no one in the room but a heavily breathing pair of dogs.

Okay. The game is not much more advanced, graphics-wise, than Oregon Trail 2. I mean, seriously. It's not awful or anything, but it's not really all that advanced. So I'm all, "Well, the slightly-retro-cheesy graphics will dull down the spooky factor."

For those who have not played a similar game, basically all it is is a static screen with scenery. You can click on some objects, either to pick them up and add them to inventory, examine/read them, or to activate switches or some-such. About the most complex thing going on, graphics-wise, is a flickering light or two. Nothing actually 'moves'. You flip a switch and it's flipped with little or no animation. You click to the edge of the screen to turn around. You click to go up stairs. It's not all that... immersive. It's not like Half-Life 2 where you're all FPS-ish and can move around within the environment - you can only zoom in (if available) and zoom-out and turn left-right-back-forward and I guess diagonally, but I hadn't run across that, yet.

The game is even so helpful as to write out exactly how to play the first five minutes of the game. Go here, listen to ghost's speech, go there, look there, pick up this, read all that, etc.

Seriously, not all that difficult to figure out how to play. I hadn't gotten to any of the puzzles yet, so I don't know how difficult that is, but the first ghost who talks to you is willing to be your in-game hint thing - you just have to wait around awhile around the puzzle, then run straight back to where he hangs out and if you don't dawdle/get lost, he can give you a hint. Shouldn't be too difficult, right?

Well, I don't know if it is difficult or not. I didn't play much more than eight minutes into the game.

I'm such a pansy. ::ashamed::

I was fine poking through the place - the train station with all these 'war posters' plastered everywhere - until I got into the station house and tried to go down this one hall. Even LOOKING down the hall has these little invisible British kids chanting some sort of song about buying/selling cigarettes. You want a song to be creepy - have it sung by young Brits with echo/fade filters on it. Creepy, creepy, creepy. Think of just about ANY horror movie and you'll find that they agree.

"I'm tough," I tell myself, and continue. Earlier, I found a vending machine that gave me some coins I could use in some puzzles. I then found a phone booth and put the coins in. (This is one of those parts the book helped with, but it was really rather simple - I had already figured it out by the time I got to that part of the help-you-out section.) The book says, "Strange whispering noises can be heard, but there is no dial tone.... Listen a little longer to hear the voice of one of the two students that your brother mentioned -"

The hell. I never heard Nigel say a damn thing, just the utterly creepy whispering. Maybe I just didn't listen long enough, but the whispering just freaked me out!

Yet, still! I was okay. I continue along, poking at a few more posters and such, reading a few more notes, etc. Then I get to a hotel of some sort, and the first room I enter, there is a voice that says, Get out of my room! Oh-! Yes, no problem, many pardons. I'm outta here. Or, I would have been had I not been playing a game and needed to explore the room.

Getting seriously jumpy, at this point.

I explore the rest of the rooms (some of which make creepy sounds, but nothing sticks out in my mind), then I go up a flight of stairs. I look down the hall. I can't turn left or right. I'm pretty sure I can't even move forward. The lights in the hall go out in pairs, starting from the far end of the hall and coming towards me. Click. Click. Click. Click... CLICK right next to me.

Okay. The hell with it - I'm out of here.

I exit the game.

And now I am ashamed. ... I will have to try to play the game in the afternoon. When its nice and bright and shiney outside.

SUCH a pansy.

I should note that was 2005 and I never touched the game again. xD;

If you haven't played Ib, I'd suggest playing that, also!

Mogeko Castle doesn't really have jump scares outside of the sound, I think. Neither does Ib.

Ib is about a girl who goes to the museum with her family.... It gets bizarre from there.

Wow, CK. At least you got out of it alive.

The general ending is the one where Ice Queen gives the MC a job as head chef at one of her restaurants. Totally a great ending in terms of career advancement and friendship! Only a bummer if you're trying to hook up with one of the guys and don't manage it.

With Winter Wolves, I've played Helieen 1, Spirited Heart, Summer in Fairbrook, and Summer Session. Out of those, I liked Spirited Heart the best; it has the life-sim aspects like Summer in Fairbrook, but there are so many more story paths to take. I really wanted to like Heileen, but I was so constantly frustrated by how not-historical the story and the costumes were, that I could never get into it. (I just need to think of it as fantasy and I'd probably enjoy it more.)

I've had my eye on a number of their other games, but I've only played the demos for most of them because I haven't wanted to drop the cash for the full games. I love supporting indie games, but compared to stuff on Steam and Humble Bundle, the Winter Wolves games are on the pricier side.

Speaking of Humble and Steam, I recently got Long Life the Queen which is a VN/life-sim game, and I've really enjoyed it so far. As the queen-in-training, your goal is to navigate all the political intrigue and danger around you and survive to your coronation, and surviving is actually quite hard to do! I've played through a few times and haven't managed to win yet, which is great for re-playability.

Horror games. *shudder* I've got a couple horror games I'm working on, and even in broad daylight I can usually only manage to play them for about 10-15 minutes before I have to quit. I keep coming back to them though, as a kind of courage training. Sometimes when I'm freaking out really badly in the game, I just let the horrible thing happen instead of trying to avoid it; it's actually really cathartic and makes the game less scary afterwards.

Eli - I feel like you're trying to terrorize me intentionally now. >______> xD I hadn't heard of Ib either, but I am IMMEDIATELY SUSPICIOUS. xD It's good they don't have jumpscares, though. Jumpscares are cheap.

Yeah - I feel the same way, Liztress. I like supporting indie efforts, but their games are priced pretty high. Especially for indie games in a digital-only environment. I mean, I "guess" I understand? If I understand correctly, a lot of the work is hired out. It's not actually a fully self-sufficient game studio. So you have to make back your costs of production before you can invest in creating another game. But I can't afford their prices, so I wait for sales/bundles to pop up.

I have Long Live the Queen too. xD I don't have a Steam code for it yet (or Cinders. or Princess Battles if that's on Steam and not just Greenlight). I think I'm going to have to end up using a guide, though. I've got about five different endings so far - all of them deads. xD I really enjoy the game, but from what I've heard, it's kinda improbable that you'd get any of the more interesting endings without a guide.

Ah, yeah! The Ice Queen ending. xD I was thinking of a different ending for the sad ending, then. But I liked the Ice Queen ending, just in general. And it would be disappointing if you weren't expecting it. xD

Haha, I think I'll keep plugging away at Long Life the Queen for a while before I resort to guides. I've been learning it trial and error style, which I enjoy. Like, early in the game someone asks if I'll fund the first printing press and I really want to, so I try to build of up my trade knowledge early on. So far no luck, but I'll get that press someday! XD

I played Halloween Otome again with more focus on Mr. Wolf, and got some adorable scenes with him. Somehow didn't manage to unlock a happy ending with him though—maybe I have to win the games for that. Anyway, looking forward to picnicking with him again.

Sorry, CK. <:3c I don't mean to try and terroriterrorize you! I'm just trying to suggest games I've played that I enjoyed immensely. :3

Yeah. xD; I watched Dodger play Long Live the Queen on her PressHearttoContinue channel and because I skimmed the comments, I kind of know what I "can" try. I'm just not sure if I ought to be that... min/max munchkin about it. xD Doesn't seem like as much fun as just playing the game. (Then again, it seems very difficult to "just play the game" and not get murderized...) I really want that printing press too. xD

IKR??? Mr. Wolf is adorable. I mean, I know that's the "point" and you knew kinda what to expect from all three love interests when you met them, but just because it's tropey doesn't mean it's not wonderful and they didn't do slight twists on the trope. :3

My first ending, for what it's worth, was the best ending with the Count. I was trying really hard for Mr. Bandages, which goes a long way towards explaining how I ended up with Count, from misjudging where they they might be on those free days.

A LIKELY STORY, ELI! (Nah, I'm just kidding. xD) I don't think I'd have ever pegged you as a horror gamer, though.

Collecting all the deaths is part of the point of Long Live the Queen. I died in a duel the first time I played, and I totally cracked up at that.

Haha, I misjudged where people would be on that first free day, and ended up with Mr Bandages when I was trying to find Mr Wolf. On the second free day, I knew exactly where everyone would be, but chose to hang out with the Count in the library even though I should have gone to the main hall, because honestly, libraries. Even though the guys are all tropey, they're also different enough that they shook me out of my usual habits. I usually skip over the charmers and younger man and go straight for the grumpy/taciturn ones, but this game got me hanging out with everyone. :D

Have you played any/many of Voltage's games?

I'm the same way! Charmers and younger men... meeehhh... It helps, though, that the Count wasn't a charmer stereotype (like the completely over the top ones) and Mr. Wolf wasn't totally shouta young and more 'gentle and shy' than 'weak and helpless'. I do gravitate towards the grumpy/aloof types too. xD

And it's really rare for me to enjoy all the routes. xD I know that's easier with three wooable characters, but still. Usually there's at least one that I can't bear. (Or, like when I played a bit of Yo-Jin-Bo, I hated ALL of them. I know it's more of a parody game than a serious one, but I just couldn't get into them even just enough to enjoy the humor. It might say "otome" on the box, but it was really a game for guys, imho.)

I don't think I have, really. I'm not sure. >_>; If I want to play something in the iStore, I have to borrow my mom's iPad and I generally just can't be bothered. And I don't feel it's sensible to buy a game for a system I don't actually own myself. xD; I have a Kindle, and very little dating-sim-ish is available for it. (And I don't really know how to buy something from the Google Android store and port it over. I mean, I've ported a couple of games before, so I know it's possible. But Google won't let me buy or even download free stuff from their shop unless it's going directly to a non-Kindle device, and I don't have one.)

I feel really dirty for saying this, but one of my favorite visual novels is a gay furry dirty dating sim, called Morenatsu. <:3c

CK, I'm not really a horror gamer, but I do enjoy horror games from time to time.

Originally Posted by CK

Yeah - I feel the same way, Liztress. I like supporting indie efforts, but their games are priced pretty high. Especially for indie games in a digital-only environment. I mean, I "guess" I understand? If I understand correctly, a lot of the work is hired out. It's not actually a fully self-sufficient game studio. So you have to make back your costs of production before you can invest in creating another game. But I can't afford their prices, so I wait for sales/bundles to pop up.

One thing that I feel hurts a lot of indie companies (especially ones who cover the niche genres like VNs) is the expectation from fans of the genre is usually high and there isn't as many fans as you'd find for other genres such as RPGs. And when it comes to a visual novel, the main things people expect to be top notch is the story and graphics. And to get an artist worth their weight in gold, you going to have to pay some serious money. Because they know their worth and other companies know it too. Unless you happen to be talented at the art or have a good pal who is talented and wouldn't mind waiting to see how the game sells and taking a percentage of that. Big name companies can afford to hire the best while most indie companies work out of their houses or a small office building.

Sales/bundles, in my opinion, can prove to be great in getting the word out about a company and can bring in more profits than selling the game at full price. And that's how I usually do any of my PC game buying, lol.

Oh, I love game bundles and sales! I'm definitely a frequenter of Humble Bundle, among other sites.

Me too. Humble Bundle is a must-have site to visit.

I hate that I missed out on Long Live the Queen when it was offered. I so want to play it.

I'm sure it'll be on sale once the christmas steam sale rolls around. I picked it up during the summer sale last year, though I hate playing it because I don't like failing stat checks.

I need to put some money in my Steam wallet for that sale. I should have done that instead of buying the newest Humble Bundle. But I really wanted Always Sometimes Monsters and Saints Row 4.

Originally Posted by Elirona

I feel really dirty for saying this, but one of my favorite visual novels is a gay furry dirty dating sim, called Morenatsu. <:3c

How "furry" is the story?

I like stories with anthropomorphic animals (and I enjoy drawing animal-people - I still roleplay original characters set in the SWAT Kats: The Radical Squadron universe), but my tolerance for "furry culture" has ebbed through the years.

CK, I'm not really a horror gamer, but I do enjoy horror games from time to time.

That's fair enough. xD I really like a good supernatural and/or "murderer" story, particularly with suspense and/or mystery. I just avoid "horror games" (and movies - I can handle this better in books) in general because of the trend towards jumpscares and torture porn. I'm squeamish, so a little goes a long way for me.

Originally Posted by Liztress

One thing that I feel hurts a lot of indie companies (especially ones who cover the niche genres like VNs) is the expectation from fans of the genre is usually high and there isn't as many fans as you'd find for other genres such as RPGs.

Yeah. I think they'd sell a lot more copies (and make more money) if they priced under 15 dollars. I rarely buy a game over 10 dollars anymore.... And, really? A lot of indie VNs don't really have art quality that makes me hand over 10+ dollars without a second thought. (Same with indie games in general.) I will, if I hear that the story is really good, but I don't fork over for a product untried or a disappointing demo. Unless it's a studio or review I trust, I prefer watching at least one route on a Let's Play first. I've been burned too many times. (Matches and Matrimony, I'm looking at you. I'm looking at you reeeeeal hard.)

And when it comes to a visual novel, the main things people expect to be top notch is the story and graphics. And to get an artist worth their weight in gold, you going to have to pay some serious money. Because they know their worth and other companies know it too. Unless you happen to be talented at the art or have a good pal who is talented and wouldn't mind waiting to see how the game sells and taking a percentage of that. Big name companies can afford to hire the best while most indie companies work out of their houses or a small office building.

Yeah.

My own intentions (currently) are to make a "full demo" version of the game for free with several (maybe even most) of the endings of the game, using sketches for the artwork assets. Then the pay version of the game with more endings and full art. (Generally full color, but there's at least one project I'm thinking a more limited palette.) I don't know that any of my games would cost more than 9.99. We'll see when I get to that point, though.

But I'm doing this all myself. I'm an artist and a writer, and both at pretty decent levels. It'll have to start off at "hobby" level, maybe a game a year if they don't sell. I can kind of afford to experiment with basically releasing the games for free and asking for money if they like the game enough to want the extra characters/endings/full color artwork. Not every indie studio can.

Sales/bundles, in my opinion, can prove to be great in getting the word out about a company and can bring in more profits than selling the game at full price. And that's how I usually do any of my PC game buying, lol.

Yeah. I love bundles. I could never have justified buying Cinders at full price, though the art assets are really pretty top notch. I got Kansei and Josei and the third game in the series because of a bundle. Wouldn't have bought them individually, though I enjoyed playing them, so I'm really glad I took advantage of the bundle they came in. (They're pretty short, though, so I'd have felt angry if I'd paid full price, as good as they were. Looking forward to game four of the series, though. Miiight even shell out close to full price for it.)

I dunno. Not "mad" at the VN studios or anything. They have every right to price at what they think the market will bear. xD And pricing high at first in hopes of boosting their immediate returns is smart. I'll just bookmark/wishlist and wait for them to show up in a bundle or to drop to a price I won't hold against the game if it doesn't measure up to my expectations.

/rambles

The story is PRETTY furry. Also, very very gay. :U

*chuckles from the shadows*

(I'm just lurking because I'm a noob to this style of game, but this thread is very informative! )

I'm curious how CK or other makers come up with the personalities for the characters. Do you guys just sort of feel it out, and get inspired, or do you look at the sort of standard issue character types and work within that framework?

Originally Posted by Elirona

The story is PRETTY furry. Also, very very gay. :U

I write romance novels for a living... and most of them so far are male/male. xD Gay doesn't bother me. I really want to look into it because you rate it so high, I'll just have to get over my, "nngh...." reaction to hearing it's PRETTY furry. xD

(I don't have anything against people who identify as "furries", but having been in the fandom awhile, I left because of the toxic nature of furries in a group. Individuals are often very lovely people.)

Originally Posted by BellyButton

*chuckles from the shadows*

(I'm just lurking because I'm a noob to this style of game, but this thread is very informative! )

Yay - lurk away. xD And don't be shy about posting either. :B Might keep you from buying 'duds'. xD (Or us ranting about something we think is a 'dud' may make you go, "Actually, that sounds like something I'd enjoy!" which is also great. xD)

Originally Posted by Cardinal Biggles

I'm curious how CK or other makers come up with the personalities for the characters. Do you guys just sort of feel it out, and get inspired, or do you look at the sort of standard issue character types and work within that framework?

Usually, for dating sims, I start out with a kind of basic character type. "Okay, so I have a king character. He needs to order X to happen for the story idea I have, so it kind of makes sense that he'd be an assertive leader. But I also have this other leader over here. And overlapping too much will be boring, so okay, I'll make the king kind of a Golden Boy/Captain America type and this other leader have a darker tone to him.... No, wait. I like the idea of a lurking shadow king too. Okay, other leader isn't dark, rather he's kind of snobby. Okay, then we have a Golden Boy, a Shadow King, and a Snob. I need a gentle type, I think, to balance out the group. Do I need a playful character? Or do I leave that role to the MC?" etc.

I think that to a certain extent, you have to start from a "type" if you're going for a dating sim. Or, at least, you have to figure out what "type" your character would fall into and keep in mind what sort of expectations the reader will have. Also, the more love interests you have available, the more variety you really want with them, to give your readers different experiences or attract people who are interested in different types. (If a game was all about wooing shouta types or drama queen types, I'd pass on the game. But I might give the shouta and drama queen a chance if I liked the writing for the brooding loner. xD )

Don't think of it from the perspective of bloodless, cookie-cutter characters, though. (Not saying it doesn't happen, but I'm going to ramble about why you want to think in "types" for dating sims.)

Your character may subvert the "type" or be more nuanced beneath the surface than they might at first appear, but for a dating sim, you kind of have to signal something to the player, and if you don't deliver what you're signaling, you need to be very good at making people who like that "type" you signaled like the character you actually give them.

For example, if you start off with a really aggressive and controlling "alpha" type - people who like that type can expect that either he'll continue to the end as it says on the box (sometimes with "bad endings" where he murderizes you even!), soften "just for [the MC/player]", or reform by the end. If you decide to give them a wilting wallflower by the end of the story (he was just pretending or came off that way due to misunderstandings), most players are going to be not just disappointed, but possibly angry ("I bought the game because character X totally looked like he was the type I liked to play! And he didn't do ANY of the things I expected/wanted!") and might not try any of the other routes.

It'd be like putting a spaceship on the cover of your book and writing a blurb about, "Fantastic space adventure!" and giving them two people having tea in a space ship. Yeah... it has space... But they picked up the book because they wanted a space adventure, and they're just getting a comedy of manners in space. Which might have been something they also liked if signaled appropriately, but now they're all disappointed because they were in the mood for whizbang and rocket ships.

So.... Okay, yeah. xD; tl;dr, but those are my thoughts on the matter, anyway. My rambles above don't apply (imho) to "general" visual novels, just to dating sims/romance VNs.

Liztress: Long Live the Queen is on sale on GOG.com. Long Live the Queen It's $5 here.

@CK: I believe Morenatsu is still in development, as some of the character paths haven't been completed. I haven't touched it in a long time though, so it might be done at this point.

Thanks for the head's up, Eli. I might see what our money looks like after we replace the back tires on the car. If we get some cheap enough, I'm going to have to snag it.

Awesome! I thought you'd like to know, since you were interested.

^_^ I'm glad you pointed it out. I hope it stays on sale for at least the weekend.