Originally Posted by Aliena

I agree with you, Tirael, about people who aren't great artists still being able to give critiques. My husband doesn't draw at all and yet, in pretty much every picture I do, I pull him over to the computer and sit back and say, "What's wrong with it?" and he can proceed to tell me every little thing I missed! Sometimes he can't always determine exactly what's off, but more times than not, he's instantly able to see a line, some shading, a curve, whatever, that needs to be adjusted where I've been sitting and staring at it for hours, knowing it was off, but not knowing exactly why. He just has a good eye for that sort of stuff.

• 
  My dad does the same thing. He just pokes his head round the corner and says things like: head odd angle. Can't bend neck that way. Or Foot looks broken, move it a little. xD It helps, although he's not always the most helpful as he lets me get on with it. xD
  
  fongmingyun:
  I reference, however, the references we have generally made available, are magazines, with models that are size 4. And generally, don't even seem to have shading/dimples/wrinkles/anythng remotely natural. Another reference I use, is I get my most crazy friend, to sit still(not very), for a few minutes, while I sketch them. Or Photograph them, for reference. My friends are generally quite willing as I'll always repay the favour. xD There is this one anatomy book with poses/muscle groups in which is very good and I use whenever I can find it. It's a very good book, and it explains an awful lot about the human body.(it seems to go missing a lot xD) It's my teacher that tell my class to reference, he's never actually told me personally. x) Perspective, I learned originally from my parents, (When I was 10, didn't sink in) and again by my crazy art teacher. xD Who was actually teaching us interior design, so she started teaching us different types of perspective at the same time. Which stuck, strangely enough.
  
  I actually draw both now, at the same time. Realism, and Anime. It depends on my mood really, or what I need it for. I say I stylize very broadly. Including faintly, to abstract, to it's just paint with some random dots on it(which is probably also classed as abstract). XD It depends what I'm painting, why and for what reason. For example, I have two completely different pieces sitting on my desk. an Abstract piece based of the music video for The dope Show, and a piece of work, based of the work of john Constable. It depends on my mood, and what I need it for all in all.
  
  

Originally Posted by light

*generally agrees*

woe: i dont use reference at all. almost ever. i really need to, i know, but i suck at it... once i tried to draw a likeness from someone and he becomes mutantapocalypsevictimlike... T_T.... *gonks in the corner and tries harder*

there's something about ref that makes me inhibited, as if i have to conform to the 'guide' and my stupid inner untrained mind rebels against it :(. i really should have never gone on too long without referencing... but now it become harder and harder.......... awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

*gets off the moanbox and lurks again in the corner*

(XD)

lol. beat the crap out of your untrained mind? I dunno, I like, see references just as helpers.

woe, yeah XD at it. and hard at it, too :D

*beats the crap out of it* GET BETTER, you damn untrained mind!!! RAWRRRRRRRR

Personally I see myself as a realism artist. It wasn't until I got on Gaia that I started to try and catter to the anime lovers out there. No one wanted realism and I didn't have the time to put into my real artwork. It sounds kinda bad maybe but everything I've done for Gaia or Menewsha for the most part save one or two images I see as killing time just my sketches. I don't consider them "real" art.
I do think anime can be hard and for me it is at times. Though again I don't consider my stuff anime it's some halfbreed. But to me it's not the difference between anime and realism that is the divider for me it's the cg artist and the traditional aritst I see more seperation and this barrier I just can't seem to get past. No matter how much I practice there is something in me that just hasn't grasped being able to color or draw on the computer very well. -shrugs-
But for me I will always respect the artist that can go back and forth between them and you would never know. That is a master in my eyes.

Originally Posted by fongmingyun

Agreed. I've been doing straight-up too long, too. I don't consider my work realism.

But nevertheless, i think we can all agree it's a mix of obeservation and understanding - it's not like you can do one without the other.

• Haha, but you improve soo fast~ I say it all the time, but like, everytime you produce something new, its like a million times better than before. ;o;

Originally Posted by tirael

LunaMiel: that may be the difference between observational skills and fully understanding the human body. Someone may be able to copy what they see from observation but to understand why the shadow falls that way or the structure underneath the object is another matter... the understanding can be applied to both realism and anime or whatever style you choose... of course observation leads to understanding, but it's not instantaneous~

• Yeah, I totally get what your saying. Like, I know there are alot of artists out there, who probably couldnt draw to save their lives without a reference, mainly because they don't understand the fundamentals of WHY things work the way they do. Sometimes I wish I had a mix of both skills, to be able to observe and understand. Gah, sometimes my mind likes to "override" waht I'm seeing and make it "correct" when its really not.

Originally Posted by LunaMiel

• Haha, but you improve soo fast~ I say it all the time, but like, everytime you produce something new, its like a million times better than before. ;o;

Lol, I don't see it. Only in like, personal pieces where I make the conscious descision to try and improve.

Rvyaya- I have a difficult time seeing ANYTHING I do as art. LIke, I always beleive art should had a point outside of simple existence, and I feel my stuff is kinda just... I dunnom, mental matsurbation, lol. my OCs and whatnot, or making other people happy.

-laughs very hard at fongmingyun's comment- Mental Masterbation xD I like that! I dare you try and draw something to represent that!

8DDD oh my. I'm not sure where that would go. @Rvaya

woef: it's hard to see your own improvement unless you put a lot of your art together and look at it (like in the quest for improvement things)... and a lot of times you improve things slowly one at a time... like maybe with this picture you're focusing on the nose, or shading, or color, or something and it's hard to say you've improved overall, but after time it happens ya? D8... something like that. I kinda lost track of what I was saying.

I see art as a way of expression, and especially lately I've felt like... I'm not really expressing, I'm just processing and pumping out art :/... baah.




LunaMiel: X'D. oh good, I wasn't sure if I stated it in the right way~~ But yes I wish I could just intuitively look and understand thigns sometimes... a lot of times I find that the difficult part of art is taking everything into account (especially with lighting) like how everything casts shadows, and then other things reflect etc etc... sometimes I notice that I forgot something really basic @__@;; I guess with time it comes more naturally but I haven't gotten to the point where I can just do it all without thinking D8;; /brainfries trying to keep track of everything/

I am able to look at thing in real life and draw them or from references much better then I am from my head. I am still trying to get past that. When I go just from my brain I get it wrong right off the bat and it takes a lot to modify it to what I wanted but it can usually get there for the most part.

But in a life drawing class or something I do very well at least I even suprise myself sometimes. I think "oh man I'm not gonna be able to transpose that to my paper" and then give me an hour and I'll probably have it. -shrugs- That just comes naturally to me. It's different for all artists. I don't think there is anything wrong with using references. They are one of my main learning tools. And I find that once I've finished an image and figured out what I could then I retain it for the next picture I do and it over all helps imporve my understanding of things.

Originally Posted by Tirael

I see art as a way of expression, and especially lately I've felt like... I'm not really expressing, I'm just processing and pumping out art :/... baah.

I so feel like that now, too. At least, for modeling class, I get to do my own characters.

But most of what your friend has on their deviantart IS just cartoons, Lunamiel. It's hard to weigh their anime vs. their realism when all they have is cartoons up.

As to those who don't draw giving critiques, yes, I do agree up to an extent; they can tell you if they like it or not.

However, just as a lot of people can say, "Oh I hate rock n roll.." That helps zero. "Oh I don't like your art." Not useful. "Oh it's too loud." That's not helpful since rock is often loud. "Oh it's too dark" "Oh it's too cute."

General comments like that are useless, and I think that is where the confusion comes in.

I personally prefer that if someone must give criticism, that it be something useful.

"There's too many low notes, not enough high, no variety in melody to make the bass interesting." That would be more helpful than "Argh, I hate loud noises."

So too, with art. "The brushstrokes are a bit fuzzy, I'm not sure if you meant it to be that way, but if you could clarify this part of the picture, it'd give the viewer something to focus upon...or if you are going for a faded dream look, then why the contrast here and there?" It may very well be that the person doing it wants it to be dreamlike..etc.

Usually describing and explaining the effect some technique has helps the artist figure out if that's what they were aiming for or if not. And suggest something to them, if that's not what they were aiming for, "If you weren't going for a faded softer look, maybe add more dark there, more light here, get rid of that fuzzy plant in the back or go back over the plant and add in ridges for the leaves.."

I consider criticism, but usually, what is of more interset to me are any suggestions and any feedback I get on the specific reaction. I don't give a damn if "it's so dark" or "it's so bright"...I wanna know, where it's "too" dark..or is it even too dark? If I was aiming for a depressed, wretched mood, have I hit the spot? If I wanted a mysterious tone to the piece, does the candle and the lady in red work? Or should I turn that red to blue? Would that give it too much of a dead feel?

Generally speaking, not always of course, other artists give me the best feedback on techniques to try, and are more understanding on what you're trying to achieve. When I say, for example, "I mixed realism and fantasy and with this piece with the dragon tamer, I'm going for something bold."...

A lot of the time, I get feedback from people, and it's crap like, "She's too short" when she's 5 1/2 heads tall--I'm not going for anime. -_o'

But with someone else who draws, who paints, or even just someone who has gone through tons of art, you'll get something more like, "It's a little too much red. The dragons are red, her costume is red..it looks bloody." Or something like that.

At least with the second, you can change things. You can make the armor silver, black, something else. But the first...well, if you're going for realism, and not anime, and she's human, then yeah she's not gonna get any taller yo. -_o'

I had that problem for a little while. When I started my art class, my teacher wasn't too fond of my anime work and told me I needed to concentrate more on realism. I can draw almost anything by looking at it, so that wasn't too hard to do, and I made 100's on about everything, but then when I tried to enter some anime art into a contest, she told me that I couldn't.

After a while, I started blending realism and anime styles (Ex: realism in the front, and simi-realistic anime fairies or something in the back) and she liked it. After that, she started complimenting my anime stuff and pointing out things that I could do better on the clothes (I suck at clothes).

I guess I kept showing it to her so much that it grew on her. ^^;
Anyway, my problem is, after I took a break from anime style for realism, now I can't get back to the anime... All of my anime stuff looks strange now. On top of that, I'm really picky, so if I can't get it proportioned or turned just right, I toss it.

8D'' aah

Scarlet: my comment on that was mainly aimed at those who think "oh this person isn't as good of an artist as me so obviously they don't know what they're talking about" than those who aren't artists at all... I tend to see this from people on sites like DA who are caught up in their 'popularity' and discredit the friendly advice they're given :F...


And I completely agree on the comments thing @_@;; I really hate it when people say a one-liner like "cool." or "nice." especially when it's kinda... wishy-washy like they wish it was better but won't tell you how to make it better >__>;;


Cyndel: It's nice to hear that your teacher came around :'D...

Anime style does have a great effect on your realism I believe^^

But theres no reason you can't do both~

Originally Posted by ScarletStratholme

But most of what your friend has on their deviantart IS just cartoons, Lunamiel. It's hard to weigh their anime vs. their realism when all they have is cartoons up.

• Haha, well, he considers those cartoons anime style. XD;

For me realism is not a challenge at all, at least what I currently have to draw in art class. :roll: All we do is draw from Real Life objects or reference off things, for the most part. Referenced realism is easier than anime for me. :D I drew a couple anime pics in my art book and got the odd 'You draw like an asian' comment from classmates, but my teachers don't seem to mind the style. I suppose College teachers just have alot more insight into different styles than a HS art teacher. ^^; And I must say drawing anime these past few years has indeed forced me to learn alot more about anatomy and helped alot with my study now!

I know what you mean. It's not just anime art though. Cartoon artists get the same thing. Teachers seem to hate any sort of cartoon style art, including anime style. I've been discriminated against for drawing anime style, even on Gaia, which is highly influenced by anime x.X; People act like drawing in anime style is some new trend, so it's not a real form of art. But that isn't true. The style has been around for ages, and steadily changes and improves... Where as realism just pretty much stays the same because what it's based off of doesn't change.

I used to draw portraits before I started drawing anime, and I was really good at it. Though I did notice that after a couple years of drawing anime I wasn't quite as good at portraits ^.^; I think it was because I got out of practice though.

By what I've heard, not just HS but many college professors scoff at cartoonists. They act like they aren't real artists. But the guy painting different coloured triangles inn the corner is a frickin' genius x.x;

It is true!
You can do both >_<
Those people who didn't accept you...
they're about to learn a lesson if they ever try to draw anime
Now I only know how to draw anime, I forgot how to do realistic art,
I think you're a very good artist to be able to still draw both.

I've actually have this assumption pointed at me as well. I had moved into the area a year before I started high school so I wasn't really 'known' well by people. When I started art class I went wild with a realism aspect in my drawing. People grew interested in me. Then they were all equally shocked to find out that I doodled anime and cartoon animals all of the time. My art is almost a mixture of both realism and anime. I'm working on learning shading and colouring skills so that it doesn't look flat.

But anyways it surprises me every day that people make the assumption that if you can draw a chibi avatar that you can't draw a realistic couple. I think that there needs to be a group of people who can prove that this is more of a stereotypical judgement. Most all artists can draw in a number of different styles.

In my opinion i like anime art over all other styles. though being a anime artist doesn't mean that you cant do other styles such as realism. i started off as a graffiti artist and ended up a anime artist ^^ and along the way won art awards for blind contour drawings. it's only those who limit themselves who can't adapt to anything new or change and evolve. the style of anime has grown alot in the past years. American cartoonist have started using some of the techniques used by Japanese anime artist. most noted has been Disney, stated in past interviews. sorry to side track, but i dont believe that just because you are a anime artist that you cant do other styles of art ^^ it depends on the individual and not their style of art. hope i was of help ^^
::huggles lilim::

This is for Prod, your styles in both anime and realism are both very good. you have set a good example with your art for people who doubt anime artist ^^

D: ! ;__; *gives PB a penny for her words*

In my school, most artists are anime artists, so teachers can't do the whole biased appeal. (Then again, like.. 50% of my school is Asian XD) They do, however, still dislike it and claim it cripples the artists' potential but since it's already in the portfolio- they let it go for now.

I think drawing realism from imagination (What's that called? XD Realination?) is a lot more difficult than anime from imagination because.. it requires extensive knowledge of anatomy and stuff.

I am rambling. D: Well.. well, in all in all, I believe that they should both come hand and hand because anime with realism is blind, realism without anime is boring (I so did not steal that from Einstein. 8D).

Kanamo, you said
"I think drawing realism from imagination (What's that called? XD Realination?) is a lot more difficult than anime from imagination because.. it requires extensive knowledge of anatomy and stuff." i'll find a drawing i can put up of mine with "anatomy" for you ^^ anime art isnt always a lack in detail .. that depends on the artist.

That teacher is really discrimatory. Why does drawing anime mean that your works don't dserve a A+? He shouldn't be putting that into the picture when looking at your works. Your works rock, and they deserve the A+.

Anyways, I never had that many problems with art teachers over the stuff, since my old art teacher was an asian art teacher with asian students who drew anime as a hobby. Though she did force me to do a ton of still lifes.. She wasn't at all baised about my anime art, and simply critiqued that I needed to work on my shadows and stuff. My school is predominantly asian, and my teachers overall aren't biased by it. They just judge the works by quality, not style. My art is a mixture of realism and anime. My teachers are fine with it.

Anime is a style based off of realism. Its simply a more simplified version so that its easier to anime and draw an extensive amount. If you were to draw a complete manga in realism, it would be pretty time consuming. Also, anime style appeals to a wider range of people.

I've been dnoticing that anime artists seem to have their own sections. Its the artists on one side, and the naime artists on the other side.