Yeah. When she said she was killing someone off in the 6th book I knew it was him. It was a bit obvious. He was too powerful. Haha well she wants us to be uncertain but seriously unless the whole ploy of killing Dumbledore was fake and Snape didn't really do it then there is NO way he is good.

Ugh I hate Wormtail I want him to die so bad. I thought in the third book it was so damn stupid how they didn't use a spell to restrain him. BUT NO they use one on Neville in the first book, the parallelizing one? God that just annoys me, obviously it had to happen for the series but at the same time I mean GRRR.

Yeah that probably why I hated it I was like.... COME on lets get too some good stuff. Not that character development was bad. I hate how PMSy Harry is in the later books. He seems like he has a stick up his butt.

I was reading it in the car and I remembered I started crying when I read it and I was so upset my dad was freaking out. It was funny... well now it is , it wasn't really then.

I'm soo glad I have finally found someone who agrees with me on that. I mean, seriously. Dumbledore is not Gandalf or Jesus, so he's dead, and there's no point to Snape being good if he killed him. zank you.

Wormtail had to get away so he can do whatever he's going to do in book 7. xP That never occurred to me, for them to petrify him. I just went with the flow.

You'd act like you have a stick up your butt, too, if you thought your two best friends ignored you for a whole summer and if the majority of your world thought you were a lunatic. xP

When I read OOTP for the first time, when Sirius died, it was like 4 in the morning, and I kept telling myself, "Stay awake. Stay awake. Stay awake." and I got to the part where Dumbledore and Voldemort are fighting in the ministry and fell asleep. I cried when I woke up though because I remembered, "Oh my gosh. Sirius died."

When DUMBLEDORE died though. ooooomfg. It was the Sunday evening, and I thought I had gotten it all out. I was sitting on the computer, chatting to my other harry potter buddies about the ending, and I just started bawling. My mom was like, "Jordan! What's wrong?!" i'm just like, "Mom, Snape killed Dumbledore.." gosh, I'm tearing up right now. It's so sad. I miss him.

Lol, I'm surprised more people don't agree with you. Seems pretty obvious to me. I guess they are all tricked by JKR writing skills. Haha. If he is dead Snape is bad if he somehow faked his death Snape is good, that is really the only loop hole.

Lol well I just hated it cause Harry finally had someone who cared about him then they lost the only evidence the dumbest way. I mean COME ON, but yeah it had to happen so I'm over it, sort of.

I guess I would T__T gesh when you put it that way. I forget what book it was in though where Harry was all bitchy at Ron thinking Ron wished to be Harry. Sigh I suppose it is just high school drama in wizard school.

LOL what a horrible time to fall asleep at. Yeah I was reading it at 8am or something. It was a sad part. Unlike when Diggory died. I read right over that and three pages later I was like OH!! OH OH OH!!! That is who died in this book! Lol. He wasn't very important.

I knew it was coming so I was prepared. I expected the worst. Dumbledore's death didn't make me cry but it was sad. I hate how they said they weren't going to go to school since Dumbledore is dead or something and they have to fight. Just seems so... >_> I don't know... seems like a poor influence lol.

It does mean it is going to be an adventure though, in unfamiliar surroundings and what not. I love Lupin too I hope hes back.

Yeahhhuhhhh, but JKR said Dumbleydore's dead. Even my boyfriend doesn't see it. "Jordan, Jesus came back, so Dumbledore will." is basically what he says, and I hope he never finds this thread. [He's never on anyway. ;'(]

Sirius died because he loved Harry, though. He came to his rescue, and he just needed to. It's sad, yeah.

Mhm, they're all growing up together. 11-17 is a pretty big chunk of one's life.

I think Cedric was like, a starter sort of. An appetizer, if you will. like, as if JKR was thinking, "A lot of major characters are going to die in the last three books, and my adoring fans will cry. So I will just prepare them with this...." lol.

Harry HAS to fight though. And it all has to end this book, so yeah.. There's not really another way that would make a lot of sense to get him out of Hogwarts.

Lupin has to be back. : ) With TONKS. I adore that pairing, I really do. It's so great.

Hahahahahaha. JKR is an excellent writer and I doubt she will bring back Dumbledore cause he will only steal Harry's spotlight and we just can't have that.

I love Sirius T___T I don't remember wasn't it some lame way he died like fell through a curtain of no return or something stupid like that?

LOL you are so right about Cedric. I really hope she doesn't kill of Ron... or anyone awesome. She probably will though she seems like an author who won't let the fans direct her writing. If she wants someone dead they will be.

I remember she also said when she was trying to get the fifth book out she had the last two paragraphs of the seventh book written so it just confirms my suspicions about him possibly dieing. If he doesn't he will be new headmaster haha.

I forgot about TONKS I loved that too. So sweet.

Right, right.

He was dueling Bellatrix, and she stunned him or something, and, yes, he fell into the veil. It was so depressing though because Harry kept looking all over it and expecting Sirius to be right behind it. I really hope they don't screw that up in the movie.

I think Cedric is the only thing in HP that I like better in the movies. Amos made me CRY. lol.

I don't think she'll kill Ron. Harry, yeah. I really respect that she writes HER story and doesn't let the fans tell her what to do. I can't see Harry as headmaster. He doesn't seem like the teaching type. (excluding the DA.) I just, idk. I would picture him as an auror, like pseudo-Moody said, or a professional quidditch player.

And Luponks will have multicolored little wolf cubs together. ^^.

Okay, I know I'm kind of jumping in the middle here, but I just thought I'd display my point of view for public maiming. ^-^

First: Severus Snape has been my favorite character since book 1. I absolutely refuse to believe that there was ever a benevolent thought in his head--the man was truly evil, through and through, possibly as evil as Voldemort himself. For that reason, he is my favorite character. I love an awesome villain, those villains that you love to hate, and Snape is the embodiment of that for me. Some people will shy away from thinking this about people--they would rather say, "Well, he can't be ALL bad," or something like that, when in reality, yes, he can. And I have seen NO evidence to refute that, because all of the points that people argue to the contrary can be disproved easily.

Second: I refuse to believe that J. K. Rowling will kill Harry. I don't really have much of an argument to make, because I think we can all agree that at this point in the game, it's anybody's guess. Call it a gut feeling--I don't think Harry will die. However, IF he does, he's definitely not going down alone--Voldemort will go with him, maybe not by Harry's hand, but he will go down. This may be naive, or whatever, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. X-D

Third: I agree that Dumbledore's death was necessary. I can't say that I saw it coming, but I accept it, the same way I accept Sirius's death. *gasp* Wait, did I just say that? Yes--I'm okay with Sirius's death. I've written in a lot of Potter forums, and for some reason, everybody always seems shocked when I say this. Granted, I was upset about it at first, because Sirius was such a significant figure in Harry's life, and I could feel Harry's pain. And also granted, Sirius's death was not necessary, like Dumbledore's. However, I'm not like some other Potter fans you find, who set up 24-hour shrines to Sirius, and piss and moan about how they wish he hadn't died. If I've offended anybody by saying this, I'm terribly sorry, but I'm honestly sick to death of hearing that.


Okay, I think I've covered everything. About the seventh book--I'm contented to wait and not make too many predictions. I will never read Mugglenet's book about book 7, because Harry Potter is a story, not a religion. Don't get me started on Potter and religion--I've got some horror stories about that, too, as I'm sure you can guess. ^_^

But seriously--I'm not an obsessor, I just really like the story. All right, that's my POV--do your worst! ^__^

Sorry! I fell asleep last night before I replied to this. I didn't mean to disappear in the middle of the conversation. My bad <3

Anyways, yeah it is really going to suck if they messed that up in the movie but the movies don't follow the books very well so I won't be surprised if they did mess it up.

Cedric in the movie was good, I didn't mind him, in the book I always gritted my teeth cause he was suck a jerk. Plus he is cute in the movies lol.

I also respect her for that, I mean if she did everything her fans told her she would NOT be as popular as she is, at least I think anyways. I could see him as an auror, I guess more than a headmaster. I bet Ron would be headmaster... no wait Herminonie (sp? lol) she is way more likely.

Edit:

The Mouse - Haha, I've never heard of anyone haveing Snape as their favorite character, I suppose that is interesting.

The whole thing with Harry dieing, if he does, I agree he will be taking Voldemort down with him. Does either of you remember the prophecy they heard? Something about Neville. I always thought maybe he would show up in the last book and kill Voldemort, which would be sweet.

I couldn't say I disagree but in some ways sirius' death was necessary. I mean he was Harry's god father, and that is a significant role in Harry's life. Harry would follow him you know? And I think with Sirius gone his strings to not act rash were cut so now he is almost free. Am I making sense?

Wait... some people think Harry Potter is a religion? WHAT? Lol.

Mouse- I'm glad you see it my way... sort of. lol. I hate Snape, but yeah, heeee's a bad cookie.

I think Harry could or couldn't die. The books are all about self-sacrifice for the greater good, though. and I think she would have said so already if she wasn't going to kill him off. And yes, definitely, Voldyshorts will go down with him, if he dies. Or maybe Voldemort will face something greater than death, as he so deserves. I think he has to, actually. "There are things worse than death." "He only fears Death.." both by Dumbledore. Naturally, Voldemort has to have something far worse happen to him. we just don't know what yet.

I accept both deaths, and I agree with you that you agreed (lol) that they had to happen. I'm sick of hearing a lot, too. I totally understand.

LOL, I totally understand what you mean. I understand speculation and some debate, and I love mugglenet, but I never had the desire to read the book.

I obsess, though. I almost bought Harry Potter bedsheets. : )

Tease- That's all right. I fall asleep all the time, too. and I've been busy lately, so getting on Menewsha is hard.

The movies used to follow the books so well. The first and second were so loyal. The third is where it started to get messed up. They could have included so much more valuable information instead of filler transition scenes with that stupid bird and the whomping willow. and I hate that pink hoodie, which is NOT Hermione, and I HATE that stupid, "ohmigod, is that MY hair from behind?" line. So not Hermione. This movie is where they start messing her up, and I hate it. Fourth was okay, but it was really hard to follow for my non-hp friends. They needed to work on that. I hope the fifth will be much, much better.

i agree with what you think about Cedric.

Hermione is so the headmaster. xD Or a healer. Ron's gonna succeed in quidditch, I think.

I agree, the first and second were pretty good, the third one I felt was so messed up that if you didn't read the book you got confused, that is what happened to my mom. It is still my favorite movie though since it was my favorite book.

YEAH that pink hoodie pissed me off too! UGH. I hate how the movies show Hermione and Harry kind of flirty and the books it is Ron and Hermione, I might have mixed that up? I could have sworn that is how it was though. It all depends on the director.

Maybe Neville will be headmaster. Or figure out a way to fix his parents. OH and I hope they don't forget in the movies that Harry can see the horses? that pull the carriages now that he has seen Cedric die. I thought that was a cool detail.

I know what you mean. Scholastic recently did a paring survey. 56% of Hp "fans" who took it said that they thought that Harry and Hermione would end up together. What idiots. Can they not read? I hate the implications the movies give off. they're just stupid..

Eh, I see Neville as an auror. It would be sweet if he could fix his parents, though. and I think they include the thestral detail in the movie, I've seen a clip of Luna going, "They're called thestrals..." so she's probably talking to Harry about how she can see them, too.

& if I don't respond, I'm watching Grey's online. x)

Yeah just the THOUGHT of Harry and Hermione makes me want to gag. That is NOT how it is suppose to be. And the whole Harry and Ginny. Ew, no thanks. Harry has horrible taste in women. First Cho... who was a snooty bitch then Ginny... just ew. Lol.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that clip. I think I've seen it too. That is good. I liked that part of the book. It makes you think back why you didn't know before, you know?

That is fine I think I'm going to go read or something <3s Be back sometime tomorrow after work to discuss more Harry Pottery

I like Harry and Ginny! D: Ron's sister! perfect. D: Cho was a bitch, I hated her. I think that was just a bad experience Harry had to have for his development, nothing more. She's just stupid, that pissed me off soo much. "I really like you, Harry." and then she kisses him while she's crying. =/ Come on. he's not Cedric.

I know, I know. xD

hokay dokay.

Originally Posted by Muggles Running Amok

Severus would have been better off dying for Dumbledore. Dumbledore was the only one Voldemort ever feared, making him very, very valuable to the good side of the war. Dumbledore can do more for the good side than Snape can alive.

And Snape could have refused the Unbreakable Vow. Bellatrix, who had been suspicious of Snape, didn't even want them to do it because the whole situation with the Malfoys and what Draco was told to do was supposed to be a secret. Snape, if he was good, could have sided with Bellatrix and said, "No, Narcissa. We shouldn't be doing this." It would have saved him from killing Dumbledore, and Bellatrix wouldn't have held it against him. He could have easily gotten out of it.

EDIT: And, if what you say is true, that Dumbledore didn't want Snape to kill him and that it wasn't part of Dumbledore's master plan, then Snape did indeed murder him, making a bad guy.

with him avoiding the vow.. i personally think that he always has been in love with narcissa. [YES. YOU JUST HEARD THAT. FROM ME A HARDCORE SEVERUS/DRACO FAN. x'< ]
i honestly have no idea about whether or not he's evil. the ending of the last book was shocking [and i do admit it. i cried.] and just kind of threw me for a loop.

since the release of the next book is so close, i suppose we'll just have to find out then.

Originally Posted by Muggles Running Amok

I know what you mean. Scholastic recently did a paring survey. 56% of Hp "fans" who took it said that they thought that Harry and Hermione would end up together. What idiots. Can they not read? I hate the implications the movies give off. they're just stupid..

Eh, I see Neville as an auror. It would be sweet if he could fix his parents, though. and I think they include the thestral detail in the movie, I've seen a clip of Luna going, "They're called thestrals..." so she's probably talking to Harry about how she can see them, too.

& if I don't respond, I'm watching Grey's online. x)

most of that poll was actually based off of the jkr interview where she said that one of the main characters was going to die at the end of the series. a lot of the fans discussed this and came to the convincing conculsion that ron was going to be the one to kick the bucket.
therefore in their grief, harry and hermione turn to each other for comfort thus ending up together and yadayada..

D: so yeah.

Ronneh- Isn't Snape like related to Narcissa? Maybe I'm confused, oh well. I guess that could happen, there's not really any evidence against it, but you never see Snape being all lovey dovey.... GROSSSS. -cleans mind- EWWW. >.>

I cried, too.. Yeah, I guess we will just have to find out. x)

and about your second post: omfg, that's retarded. Some fans are so STUPID. That's just, STUPIDDDDDD...someone needs to be bonked on the head.

Originally Posted by Muggles Running Amok

Ronneh- Isn't Snape like related to Narcissa? Maybe I'm confused, oh well. I guess that could happen, there's not really any evidence against it, but you never see Snape being all lovey dovey.... GROSSSS. -cleans mind- EWWW. >.>

WHAT? THEY'RE RELATED? LIKE CLOSELY? BLOOD OR SOMETHING, WHAT?
I'VE NEVER HEARD THAT. WHAAR IS THIS INFORMATION?

[maybe i should reread the books.. again. scouring for all the sevvy information. D: ]

I'm really not sure.

You can check that lexicon site or whatever, there's a hp-lexicon.com or something. I totally forget what it is, but it has the HP acronym & lexicon in the url. maybe google it.

Gah, why didn't I see this thread sooner?!
------------------------------------------------
First off, I'm a horrible debater, so bare with me.

Snape is now, and has always been a neutral character (please remember this as you read further into my debates) in the Harry Potter series, and I say this because he watches out for himself, and himself alone. He is the kind of person who will pick a side because it benefits him, not because he agrees with the point of view of one side or another. However, my biased opinion comes into play at this point because I have never in the entirety of the series liked Snape a single time.

It is my belief that Snape is not a double agent as everyone is saying, because I do feel that he is a neutral character, thus I find him to be a triple agent. Granting information to both sides, yet keeping it all for himself. I feel that he is this triple agent because he is doing what he can to save his own life. After passing the information on to Voldemort about the Prophecy, he told Dumbledore that he was truly sorry. Bull crap! Snape hated the Potters with every fiber of his being, and you know it. There was no doubt in my mind at the point of finding this out in the Half-Blood Prince that he then began to use occlumency against Dumbledore in the event that he could be saved from Azkaban. I also know first hand from the information that we have been given in the book that he has used it against Voldemort as well because he would not have survived thus far had he not. I'm sure there are things that he desperately needed to cover (like his being a half-blood) in order to sustain his position. In the course of his jobs, he had been able to find out more than enough information about both sides; more than any other person could possibly know.

From here, I have been led to the positions that he has taken part in since he became involved in the whole war. His position is very much the same on both sides. Risk your life to find information about the opposing group, and in turn relay it back to the current team. He has done this with both Dumbledore's side of the war, and Voldemort's. In turn, I believe that he chose which information would be the best pieces of information to pass on to both sides without giving full information to both. I feel that in regards to this, he kept data from Dumbledore and Voldemort that could possibly make him more knowledgeable about magic than possibly both of them. This is just my opinion however, and I do not know whether or not it is correct.

But in my opinion (if you couldn't tell through my rambling) I think that Snape is neutral. He killed Dumbledore due to the vow, of course, but I think that the hatred felt between himself and Dumbledore is more a resentment sort of hatred than anything else. He resented having to be stuck working for him for so long and not doing what he wanted to do.

I think what you say makes sense. There's nothing I can say to disagree with it, and it just seems in character with Snape. I'll add this to my theories because, from looking at it from your point of view, it makes more sense on how Snape could be on his own side. He's a vastly complex character, and he could do it, so yeah.

EDIT: But I still think he's evil. xD That's just another possibility that I am willing to accept.

Well I do think he is evil, but he's evil to achieve his own means.. not that of others. But I've never liked Snape. Even with I was little and first started reading the series, I hated him.

First of all, I think everyone should read this essay on the subject.

Now, I'm a firm believer in the goodness of Severus. Mostly because it would just be too obvious and waaay too cheap if he were evil. His character would be completely ruined.

Why bother going through six entire books of making a complex, interesting and mysterious character just to go: "Eh, he evil now. Death on all youse peoples!" at the very end? It just doesn't make any kind of sense at all!

As for the theory of Snape being out for himself... well. That just doesn't make any sense either, because as stated in the essay I linked to in the first paragraph of this post, Snape revels in being respected and rewarded for his good qualities, such as his intelligence and power. He needs someone to work for - he needs someone's approval and respect. Someone like Dumbledore or Voldemort. He can't get that from himself.

He tried Voldemort first. That turned out to be FAIL. Because Voldemort doesn't care about his followers, and he certainly doesn't respect them.

I have a really tough time trying to explain exactly why I feel Snape is good. I just never bought the whole "ZOMG Snape be teh evil nowz!", not even while reading the book. My gut instinct insisted that there was something vital about the situation that Harry was missing.

*sigh*

Maybe I'm just a delusional fangirl? ;)

I agree with you 100%. Personally, I think that dying is against Dumbledore's wishes because Harry have lost so much and Dumbledore did not tell him everything. xP Or maybe Dumbledore thought that Harry was not ready yet? Who knows? >___>

Personally, I think that Snape is evil because he is in control of this plot. He basically created it. So, if Snape was good, he would be..I don't know..Nice? x.x

Homg, sorry guys! I stopped getting topic notifications, I guess. I'm watching this topic, so yeah. Here are my replies!

Seiki- I'll accept that as a possibility. He just can't be on our side.

Sarah- I read the article up to the point where the author talks about going into character analysis. First off, I'm glad you linked to it. The interview with Melissa, Emerson, and JK impacted me & my opinions on Snape a lot. I'd like to say that the "Desperate hope" she thinks fans may be clinging to is that Snape is good. That's my interpretation of it, and given that this is RIGHT after the release of the book where Snape kills the good guy, it's an easy interpretation to make..

JK also says she doesn't want to shoot down the idea of Dumbledore planning to die because she still wants to 'give people hope', and this is after she's said she loves people to theorize. To me, this says that Dumbledore didn't plan to die. It just makes sense.

I agree with the author of the article when they say that it'll probably be much more complicated than "Dumbledore planned to die a long time ago." That's all I'll say on it for now, unless you want to discuss more about the article.

I don't understand how it would be cheap if Snape was evil. It would be a good plot twist, I think. It'd teach us how nobody is perfect, and people make mistakes in judgment. JK could do whatever she wants with Snape, and if he turns out to be evil, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't make it out to ruin his character.

He doesn't particularly care about either leader, though. I can't remember anywhere in the books where Snape has been praised for doing anything and then reveled in it. He does not seem like that kind of person to me at all. That just doesn't make sense. Snape is not a natural follower. It's hard for me to say why he isn't, but he's just not. I don't like, 100% agree with the Snape is for himself theory, but I think it's possible because he is smart enough and a good enough wizard to just gather information for himself and pretend to be loyal to both sides, for whatever reason.

We all know there's something Harry is missing. That's why no one but JK knows for sure (or her editors, you know, same thing.). We see the books through Harry's perspective, so Harry doesn't know any more than we do. However JK chooses to play out Snape's character.

I'm just going to butt in here and comment on something that you guys probably didn't think much of at the time...

But Cho Chang is not a bitch.

Yeah, listen to the Cho-haters gasp. But seriously, she doesn't deserve the hatred she gets in the fandom. I'm not going to go too in-depth, since I'm pretty sure she has nothing to do with Snape's alignment in the Really Dramatic Battle Between Good (Light) and Evil (Dark) With Absolutely No Shades of Grey, Because That Would Be Preposterous.

To be short[er than usual]: She's a teenage girl. She has hormones. Some people dislike her because Harry liked her, she was dating Cedric and then omg she liek ttly flrted wit himz, but... more than half of those people have done, or will do, the same thing. They'll be dating someone and think, "gee, that guy/girl over there is the hot stuff. 8)"

And then in the fifth book, they get mad at her for being weepy all over the place. Well, excuse me, but her boyfriend just died. If they weren't dating, then someone who considered her the most important person in his life died. Yeah, that'd give me enough reason to bawl.

Oh, and then she cried all over Harry. Yeah, look, if my boyfriend died and then I was experiencing feelings for the person who saw him be murdered, and I didn't know whether he was telling the truth or not because the newspaper was against him, and god, they were in a competition and maybe he just had it up to there and snapped and killed him -- do you get it, now? I'd cry while I kissed him.

I can't remember an instance where Cho was ever bitchy. Assuming that she was moody after the instance with Marietta... bros before hoes, dude. Just swap the gender and stuff. Girlfriends before boyfriends, you know? Friends > fling. If you gotta act like a bitch, well, okay then. Do your thing.

Just know you're gonna become one of the Most Hated Characters. :/

I don't like her. But I can understand where she's coming from. Now, I like Peter Pettigrew, but we're not going to get into that. My point is: try to get into a characters head, and usually, you'll be less willing to dislike them. I can understand where Umbridge is coming from, honestly. I've debated with people that I agree with, simply because I want to defend the person who I may dislike, but can understand where they're coming from.

Grumble grumble. Also, Harry/Ginny =/= good, imho. Reads like fanfiction. If I ever get a Really Scary Chest Monster, I'm going to stop eating dinosaurs and work on my attraction to the damsel in distress/best friend's sister. Ginny's not a DID? Think Chamber of Secrets. Plus, she's good at Quidditch and she looks sort of like his mother and she dated Dean Thomas and ooh, isn't that a great way to get back at him for something he didn't doo~? :D

But, erm. Sorry for going completely off-topic in a thread about Sev. I just couldn't help myself.

Also, MRA, I was experimenting with paint and drew your avatar. I'll get it to you eventually.