You know, clearly this is not a thread for someone who can actually utilize critical thinking. Jelly, I'm about done hearing the American bashing tone and as far as aoi's comments go, you clearly have no education about the subject beyond your personal opinion. It's impossible to discuss something with anyone who has a bone to pick and can't take a step back.

edited because I no longer give a shit.

Oh I'm not bashing anyone, I expect that someone from the US wouldn't understand my viewpoint because even if they're not religious themselves, they'll have grown up with far more of it around them every day than your average Brit is ever exposed to. So I can't help but see a lot of US religion as somewhat extreme because I've never had that kind of constant exposure.

Jeanie, I expect you have seen him, because he pops up on travel shows and all sorts :)
Here he is, watching over Rio... Christ the Redeemer

As an artist, I think religious Iconography can be incredibly beautiful and awe inspiring.

As to the comment that I am uneducated on the subject, I beg do differ, I have studied theology and mythology my whole life. My Grandmother had a phd. in philosophy/theology and wrote books on the subject and taught around the world (if you would like to know a few of the books she wrote pm me). When I write here, I am merely stating why I believe the way I do. At no time did I feel myself getting angry or upset, I am just offering a counter point of view. If you want to discuss religion, you have to be prepared to explain yourself. I find it interesting that when faced with quotes from the religious persons own religion or pointing out flaws in an argument, that a lot of the people I've talked to get huffy and storm off.
It's like saying, well since you didn't concede to my beliefs I'm taking my ball and going home :P


I am an American and I didn't feel that Jelly was bashing America, She was saying that this country shouts their religious views from the roof tops instead of keeping it a personal matter.
I completely agree with that.It's a big part of having freedom of speech, we all can have our say. We just got through an 8 year term of presidency where we were told that if you weren't christian you were unamerican, in a country that's supposed to have separation of church and state (at least thats what it says in the constitution.) Those who founded this country came here for religious freedom (more like kicked out for being the life of the party) and as soon as they hit American soul stripped the lands of the natives and ostracized any one that had different beliefs. (until William Penn, founding father of Pennsylvania who wanted his lands to be dedicated to true religious freedom.) Your Right about irony Jelly, england had ages of monarchy fighting over Protestant, catholic, or lutheranism far before the birth of our nation and now you can live amongst each other in relative peace while we are still in our infancy of religious tolerance.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of utilizing critical thinking, when you are throwing your hands up and storming out. (But maybe that's just your tone.)

The lovely thing about the internet is that you have no Idea what some ones tone is unless they use words like "I just don't give a shit."

We're getting off topic again here. Bartuc's gonna come and lock the thread <.< >.> Actually he can't as he has no charger for his laptop at the moment, so we're safe for now..

I too find religious Iconography stunning. Rio is somewhere I'd love to visit, and one reason is to see the statue. I can't explain to myself the conflicting feelings that I have about religion itself, compared to places of worship and icons and so on. There's a Wesleyan church in the city near me, no longer used as a church, it's now a hardward store : / That's just so wrong in my eyes, I see that as disrespectful, even though I don't have any belief in God and so on.

Oh and it's a proper church, I don't know whether my saying church gives you mental images of a little wooden chapel or something, this is a 900 year old building and part of a former priory.
http://www.culture24.org.uk/am64198
and now it's becoming a tourist centre...better then selling hammers and cement I suppose.

But aoi, the church here is struggling, attendance is down, some churches are having to be closed because they're too structurally unsound to remain open, and there's no money to repair them. England is heaving with churches. I could see 4 from my bedroom window in my Mum's house because where I live there's lots of small villages, all just a few miles apart, and every village has its own church. This is the Norman church in the village we lived in, a village with only two streets! And their used to be TWO churches in the village, the other was demolishes in 1637, though I don't know why.

I think you're right that the US is as the UK was several centuries ago with regard to religious fervour, I'd never considered that before. We got over ours before guns and bombs were about, thankfully :sweat:

I'm glad our monarchy isn't bloody any more (damn we were barbaric!). I can't imagine the Queen ordering all Catholics to be burnt alive on pyres the way Elizabeth I did...

Well, I am a Christian, and I think that the best way (that I've learned) to show your faith (whatever that may be) woudljust be to follow the rules of your religion. For example, as I am a Christian, I was taught that the best way to show it was to be kind to people, and that people will notice how happy you are to be kind and helpful, wtc. and be like "Why is he/she so happy all the time?" and ask you about and that will be how they would become Christian. (Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be working for me. Either I'm not pushy enough, or everyone I'm nice to is really ignorant, or something. >.<) Anyway that's not to pushy or offending. and if you really to share your beliefs, you just ask them if they know God, or about whatever you are. I don't know. Good luck I guess? :)

@ Jelly, I know what you mean about conflicting feelings, I live in the southwest, US, where there are a lot of beautiful missions and one of the largest ones in my city was turned into a safeway supermarket (homeless nuns on isle 5 ) Actually none of the ones here are still in use, some are historical landmarks though.


I live my life by trying to be a good person and learning and improving as much as I can, I am a happy person with a good family and we were never raised to worship, only to study religion. I will admit that I felt a pang once or twice because I was never able to understand the devout belief in something that was taken on faith without proof, but I also have felt fear when looking at a photograph of a sea of people in religious frenzy because a man was holding up a piece of beard hair said to be from the man they worshiped. I was terrified because I saw in their eyes that they had no qualms about killing those who did not believe.

I guess to stay on the original topic, in my ideal, it would be handled the way the Jewish faith (as was told to me by Jewish friends) handle people changing to their religion. A Non Jew must come to the Rabbi 3 times, he will refuse you on the first 2 to ask to convert to Judaism and on the third he will show you how to begin on the path, and the path is not easy. That way you realize that taking on a new faith is something you should think long and hard on. Live your life by your ideals and if others see you are someone to be admired for it, they will come to you. I just see so many people change their beliefs like they change their socks.

Maybe that's because of today's throw-away society? It's becoming normal to pick and choose your religion, go for what's currently fashionable (Kabbalah, anyone?) And pick and choose the bits of that too!

If I was going to worship anything it would be good old Mother Earth. Paganism holds a lot more sense to me. Though of course the Christian church stole adopted a lot of the Pagan festivals to try and make themselves more acceptable but I'll not go down that road.

I wonder if the OP will actually come back! Because I'd like her to answer my questions about why she's religious.

I haven't seen him before, that is quite a good statue though.

I quite like the old church I used to go to as a kid, I always thought it was very pretty. It doesn't have a graveyard any more they moved all the people out years and years ago except for a couple and a goldfish we buried there in year 3. Churches are mostly really beautiful buildings I think. There are quite a few dotted around here and a lot of them have the same name too.

I hadn't thought about America's religious er ways that way, that makes sense.

I love the stained glass in churches all over the world, I even learned how to do it last year (not really well yet though), but I remember watching a piece on the news about a church window that was smashed by some stupid kids being stupid. The news anchor said that the church was going to have it replaced and that it would cost $80,000.00. I was completely floored, 80 thousand dollars! How many hungry mouths could you feed for that, how many people could you clothe and shelter? I kept thinking, you could feed Africa for a day for that, fund medical research, buy the world a coke, so many things for that pretty window. Egads, yet another thing to be torn on.

It's the symbolic thing though, isn't it? Which would have been why the kids broke it in the first place. So much more bad-ass to break a church's window instead of a store's...

It's becoming increasingly difficult to be able to repair the churches of this country, not only because there's no money, but because there's so few people with the required skills any more. Stonemasons and so on are in short supply. Why build a structure that can stand for 1000+ years from stone when you can throw up something from cheap bricks that will fall down within 60, right? :roll:

You're not wrong.

The people who I've met who have made me view other religions besides my own as good things are the ones who seem happy and seem to have a sense of peace about them. Also, this is important to me, they don't preach. At all. And converting people isn't a priority to them. Honestly, I agree with you that it's a big turn off for a lot of people to have people talk down to them or look at them like a potential convert rather than a person.

I like it when people have theological discussions with me, but I always admire it more when they can talk about their religion and I can talk about my religion without them trying to lead it to how their religion is better or more right. I would never say or even imply that to anyone who has different beliefs as long as those beliefs aren't hurting other people and I expect people to do me the same favor.

Having said that, I've met people of several different religions, including Christianity, who are extremely capable of having what I consider good theological discussions. I think it's more often the ones who aren't stuck on the concept of "I need to convert as many people as possible" who end up inspiring people to convert...which is kind of ironic I guess. It's about living a good life and being happy because you have God and not expecting other people to notice and convert. It's something that you just do because you're genuinely happy. People can usually tell the difference.

Yup, you've got. Theological debates can be very stimulating, but no-one should ever try to convert someone else. You can only ever come to any religion via your own choice.

The only way to spread your beliefs is to try to live by example. I very, very rarely see Christians who actually do this. It's much to easier to sate that obligation to "witness" by just becoming an annoyance to people who aren't interested. In my experience, Christians in general aren't any better people than the rest of the populace, but if you think otherwise, prove it in your own life.

People who will take you on your word on an incredible and unprovable "truth" without any provocation other than a conversation are gullible and, most likely, not particularly smart.

The truth is always going to offend people. Unfortunately, the reality is that every one of us has a soul that will end up SOMEWHERE, for all eternity.

Yeah, people can get an attitude about religion if they want. But ultimately, it's their responsibility to save their bacon from frying if they don't want that to happen. It's the responsibility of those who know the truth to tell it inasmuch as prudence dictates it would be reasonable to do so.

The part that many people mess up on is the "prudence" part. Realizing when you're just spitting in someone's eye (doing more harm than good), and when you really need to say something even at the risk of being offensive (rather than just letting everyone around you go easily to hell).

To some extent, you've got to say the truth no matter what. That is, it's never all right to deny the truth. But when you're talking about doing more harm than good, you're defeating the purpose of opening your mouth. Then there are other cases, too, when you'd have an obligation to say something, offense or no... like if it's a family member or friend who needs to hear the truth whether they hate it or not, simply because you're the one in their life who can, and needs to, tell it then.

But ultimately, human beings take the path that is easiest. In many cases, that means choosing an easy, pleasurable path of sin, and unfortunately, self destruction. Lots of people know they're living messed up lives, and certainly don't want to be told that some day they're going to get a bill for that life they can't pay, either in this life, in the next, or both. But which is the real love for your neighbor? Doing what's easy on their feelings and pride? Or saying what might make them pause rather than just easily condemning themselves by that kind of life?

Real love for one's neighbor concerns first the real fact of their immortal soul, and where that soul will be going forever. This life may seem long, but compared to eternity it's nothing. I'd rather be hated bitterly by a family member for 99% of their lives for telling them they're going the wrong way, if it meant that at the last hour they finally changed their minds, than to see them burn forever because I wanted to be nice to them here.

Of course the REAL question is, "what IS the truth?" It won't do anyone any good to tell them something that is, even in part, false. Even if you believe in Christ, and that He is God, there are how many denominations with conflicting ideas? But truth is singular, not many conflicting things. Reality doesn't conflict with itself in any way. If you don't have the one and only complete picture of that reality, you'll just be spreading around errors with good intentions. That's why the most important thing is to find out which of the maddeningly large number of "denominations" actually has the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. (It's silly, in any case, to suppose that God, Who could create the universe, couldn't protect the complete truth for all times, especially when He's going to judge everyone on whether or not they accepted that truth. To say it's not there, or we can't find or know it, is to accuse God of the gross injustice of condemning the innocent.)

Christ isn't imaginary. He said what He said, commanded what He commanded, taught what He taught, and established what He established. Everything else... everything changed or modified, or refined by random men, which conflicts with that reality, is in error. If you haven't got the real deal, you're just shooting blanks at the devil. It's just repeating stuff he probably inspired (being error).

The truth is necessary, even when it's offensive. But the TRUTH... not just any foggy vision of it. Telling our neighbors lies certainly won't help them, and the devil doesn't care what pit they fall into (even one that looks like the truth), just so long as they fall, and stay down. Lots of "Christians" think they can go ahead and sin their brains out because their particular denomination says they're going to heaven no matter what as long as they believe in Christ... but when you look at it rationally, that's not any better than an atheist sinning his brains out because he just happens to feel like it. If that's the image of Christ you give your neighbor, you haven't really done him any favors.

Sometimes a doppleganger of the truth (truth mixed with error) is worse than pure error. It only takes honesty for the atheist to know he's doing something depraved. It takes humility and courage for the "Christian" to go hunt down what the truth is about Christ and accept it, even if it's tough or they don't like it. Some very bright people throughout history have found the truth and accepted it, quite without feeling, simply because it was the truth. But only the truth will help any of us, no matter what we think of it.

So I dare say that the Christian having the actual truth in his or her head is something far more important than the question of whether or not to open one's mouth and share it. WHAT you share has got to come before WHEN to share.

@ Yorihiko: Of course Christ wasn't imaginary. Then again, Buddha wasn't either.

I'll try to respond to this as philosophical as I can.

You see... When we talk about truth, it's a matter of where you're coming from.

Modernism would tell you it's the absolute. There's no gray matter and you're either black or white. You can't get around to it.

An example of this would be the pure sciences that won't have it any other way unless it can't be proven. No room, no fuss. That's that.

Postmodernists on the other hand will tell you there is no ONE truth. There are MANY truths.

This is best exemplified by the feminists. There is no single form of feminism. There are MANY feminisms. Why? Because although all females (supposedly) face oppression, their experiences will never be exact. The plight of a white woman will never be the same as that of a dark skinned one. (Not to sound racist or anything but there is a movement for that) which gave birth to the 'Third World Feminism'.

From how I answer, it's pretty clear I am a postmodernist. xD; I was just about to type: it all matters from where you come from.

Anyway~ Moving on from having been able to set those premises:

There is nothing wrong with sharing your faith.

But make sure you do it in the right time and setting. Meaning: do it when called for.

And take note that in doing so, there are dosages of doing so.

Also, make sure that the person you're talking to is comfortable about it.

With those three in mind, it shouldn't be such a difficult matter to discuss about religion.

It can be discussed in a scholarly manner or in terms of faith and belief.

Personally...

I have nothing against people who preach and share. I think it's actually nice of them to be able to do that when everyone else is rather complacent and apathetic about things. I just don't like it when they impose on others.

Religion or otherwise, imposing on others your own ideas would be denying them the freedom of thought and action which my postmodernist self does not like. D: That's just not right!

I have nothing against the Catholic faith.

I do have a grudge against those who practice it.

xD; I've met too many hypocrites that I can count that I'd rather not run into them again!

Originally Posted by Yorihiko

It only takes honesty for the atheist to know he's doing something depraved.

That's really rude. Good luck converting anyone with that attitude.

Though on a similar argument...

I think I remember someone explain to me that if you try to disprove something from existing then there is the possibility of it also being real in the first place.

@[email protected];

Though being able to say it does exist because other say so... Wouldn't that be a bit of the bandwagon effect?

Uhh... But yes, that statement there can be quite insulting especially if you're an atheist.

Though there are some atheists who just do it because they want to be cool or just don't give a care if anything exists in the first place. : /

many people today I think choice to no have a religion and they also chose to block out anything out it. I think that as a christian I can see my church going more and more down hill every day because no one wants to go. They have other things they are are more important. It makes me sad. I am not a die hard christain, but still the morals of it if nothing else is something everyone can learn from.

As it is...I think that with the decrease of people going to church or something like it they are starting to go more and more down hill as a society. I mean every day you hear about more people who are being murdered and all that. its horrible, maybe if they went to church and learned some morals...but thats besides the point.

I do hate when other people try to get me to join their religion, but i dont mind when they ask nicely and explain a little. It just can get out of hand when they are like you will go to hell for being this way blah blah.

This is a pretty touchy subject really, but I'll try to reply the best I can...

Everyone has their own beliefs, whether they believe there really is a God out there or some higher being, or if they believe it's just a bunch of crap. You can't sway people to always go with what you are preaching with, and neither is it right to force them to listen to you. I know you want to share your faith, showing people God's light and etc... but sometimes, you just have to leave them alone. Let them experience it for themselves if they want to, and not just fill their heads with the wonders of being Christan if they don't want to listen.

I am a proud Catholic, I believe strongly in the faith, but you don't see me going around trying to prove that God is out there to people who have shut their eyes and ears to religion all together. I know how you feel though, and sometimes I want to shout at the ignorant people who have shut themselves away from God's presence, but I really think the best way to express faith to others is just being a good person. Follow your values and the things you have learned from being Christian. SHOW them rather than tell them what God and the faith has done to you. If you are like that, then perhaps others around you would be curious as to how you got to be so pleasant. XD

As for "The Truth", people have many views of this too. Is there really a Heaven or Hell, or afterlife...etc. Again, this is one of many "Truths". I myself believe that our soul has to go somewhere when we die, but even if I'm Catholic, I personally am not really sure where it will go. You should just let people be. If they don't want to hear there is a Hell or whatever, then they won't listen. Like I said with experiencing the faith themselves, let them experience whatever befalls them when they die. Everyone has a belief or opinion on things, but it is wrong if you want to completely change them. You can suggest things, but you can't force a person to convert or see it your way...

Originally Posted by juniper_silver

That's really rude. Good luck converting anyone with that attitude.

Maybe with "doing something depraved" she meant a random sin like stealing and lying, rather than being an atheist? That part confused me, and I'd rather think she meant something that's not offending my beliefs...

Originally Posted by Transcendence

As it is...I think that with the decrease of people going to church or something like it they are starting to go more and more down hill as a society. I mean every day you hear about more people who are being murdered and all that. its horrible, maybe if they went to church and learned some morals...but thats besides the point.

I find it funny that I had a totally different reason for that. I think you hear more about murders because nowadays we have technology that let us know about murderings at the other side of the world, and also let us solve crimes easier. Such helping tools were unheard of in the past.

Not to mention sometimes it was religion itself fueling the hate that caused these murderings. But that's a different disscussion.

Originally Posted by Vampire Neko Yuki

... and sometimes I want to shout at the ignorant people who have shut themselves away from God's presence...

... big ouch?

Originally Posted by Vampire Neko Yuki

...but I really think the best way to express faith to others is just being a good person. Follow your values and the things you have learned from being Christian. SHOW them rather than tell them what God and the faith has done to you. If you are like that, then perhaps others around you would be curious as to how you got to be so pleasant.

Actions speak more than words, my pal :) Sometimes I wonder if it's really that hard to get... but maybe people these days aren't that curious to know why you're happy but rather why you're sad n__n' *ahem* Anyway, I think this would be the best way to go. Be a living testimony on how religion has helped you become a better person, and not the preaching man on the bus nobody pays attention to [not trying to offend anyone, but I wouldn't convert to a religion who would make me end up like that >.>'].

I am also christian. However, I do believe a lot of christians give other christians a bad name. They're preachy, self-righteous, snobbish, and quick to judge.

I suppose some could view it as me being a bad christian, but I keep quiet. I've had scenarios where I've been in a discussion, and they've asked about something, and I've explained stuff to them. Helped them in that sense. But I've never advertised or preached to someone who wasn't already questioning it and looking for information.

It is the shove-it-down-your-throat and judgmental attitude that turns people off. If you stand up for your beliefs, and let people know that you are, without getting in their face about it, then if it's something that they're pondering, or that they're curious about, they'll ask. If they do, by all means, encourage them and help them.

But personally, I think it's pretty bad when I'm a christian, but won't go to church because I find people too snobbish, judgmental, and self-righteous. Like they're the better christian, or they do it better, or they're in better favour.

Can I just tell you a story about the negative impact trying to convert someone to your own religion can have?

My father is Christian, and after the 9-11 incident, it was like he because a born again. For years he was one of those people that if you asked him, he would say yes he was Christian but hadn't gone to church in years due to the inconvenience of it and the fact that he had a very busy and tiring schedule. Then almost over night he became heavily involved, going to choir practice twice a week and attending two sermons - the early one to sing in the choir, and the late one to sit with his family. He was holding prayer meetings at work, and basically totally immersing himself into giving his everything in I guess hopes of making up for lost time.

Well at this time in my life I had my doubts about whether or not Christianity was for me, but my dad was certain it was his duty to push it on me as he didn't want me to go to hell. He drug me to his bible meetings, and eventually one night felt desperate enough to tell me if I didn't hold the same beliefs he wasn't going to support me. Of course I left for a walk immediately after that confrontation and when I got back he was telling me he was sorry he did that as it just further pushed me away.

While I don't hate the religion, I despise other people trying to force me to hold their same beliefs and I guess you could say I have this distaste for ever trying to become Christian. Dad seems to think I will see the light one day, but I just don't feel comfortable with it.

It's really down to the person to want to change in any given situation...whether it be religious preferences, drug addiction, gambling, etc...you can't force a person to change and the harder you try the farther you will push them away from you.

If vmars is even bothering with this thread anymore, I thought I would share this it might help I don't know.

Today I was standing at my bus stop on the way home from my fiancé's and a man was walking past and stopped. He asked if we would like a leaflet about Jesus I said no thank you then he saw this other leaflet some guy had given me about some book and asked if we understood what the leaflet meant. He was nice so both me and my fiancé took his leaflet.

On the back of the leaflet at the bottom it says

Invitation

If you desire to know the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour, we will send you a free copy of the booklet, "pardon for sin, and assurance of peace with God" by W. J Patton.

I still have no desire to become Christian because I have looked into it a lot and have decided it is not right for me personally but the point is I think this is the right way to do it. I did not feel offended or forced to take his leaflet.