Originally Posted by Deji-chan

It doesn't make sense, but the fact is, they are the underprivileged minority. We let them get away with that because hey! The gays can't get married, there is still racism in this country (and we're rather ashamed of it), etc. I'd say not being allowed to be proud of being a majority isn't so bad when we consider what privileges we have that they don't.

So your saying that simply by being born a certain race, creed, or color, one person is allowed to be proud of themselves but another is not. We should be proud of the things we accomplish as individuals.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

So your saying that simply by being born a certain race, creed, or color, one person is allowed to be proud of themselves but another is not. We should be proud of the things we accomplish as individuals.

A few problems with your post. Firstly you seem to be under the misconception that race is a valid concept. http://www.understandingrace.org/ a project from the American Anthropological Association explains why it is both void and invalid. Although it would not surprise me that you use a term lacking in validity when you sidestep the issue of Race ideology completely. U.S.A like many other post colonial, 'multicultural' countries has a history of 'White' culture enjoying a hegemonic position over society. This has resulted in other ethnic groups being marginalized and subordinated. One of the tools they used to maintain their dominance was Race Ideology. Which attempted to divert attention away from the very real social and political oppression and instead place the blame on the victims.

This was done by attempting to establish that the reason they were in their position was because of their inferior 'race'. While simultanousley defended the dominant position of the 'White' group by expressing they are in their position due to their natural advantages.

This pride you speak of, directly challenges that and attempts to create an equal situation. Where a person can be of equal value, regardless of their ethnicity. Although it is met with barriers, as often people from the dominant group have become quite used to their position of dominance. Indeed they have in many instances confused privilege with rights. The very fact that other ethnic groups and cultures are displacing them from their throne is cause for alarm. Hence even after all the damage they have done, through forced assimilation, ethnocide, Race ideology they still try and put the blame on the victims. To this end they try to claim that these attempts to elevate the marginalized peoples and cultures to an equal status to that of 'white' culture is racist.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

So your saying that simply by being born a certain race, creed, or color, one person is allowed to be proud of themselves but another is not. We should be proud of the things we accomplish as individuals.

Well, if we go by that logic, all men and women are created equal! But they're not. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. exists, and people who say it's in the past are dreaming. Would a white person, such as myself, give up the privileges I have in society for a pride rally? I think not. And I'd much rather the right to marry someone of the same sex than have the gay pride parade and a million pins.

Ideally, we should be proud only of our accomplishments. But some people cannot accomplish as much because of their race, creed, etc.

EDIT: Take African Americans for a example.

"People who reported black as their only race, for example, had a poverty rate of 24.4 percent in 2003."

compared to

"In 2003, among people who reported a single race, the poverty rate for non-Hispanic whites was 8.2 percent."

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here and say that they are not equal yet. This makes perfect sense to me, considering the history I learned in school. Martin Luther King Jr. was killed in 1968, after all, and they still didn't have all their rights as human beings. I say, give them their pride.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...he statistics.

I'm going to disagree with you on this cause I feel that Americans are proud and do say they are proud all the time. We have the American flag that we proudly display in almost every big business. Many people buy only American made products. Our farmers in America get a lot of benifits and recognition. There is vetrans day and other American holidays such as the 4th of July. I think your just over looking all of these things.

Originally Posted by reddeath26

A few problems with your post. Firstly you seem to be under the misconception that race is a valid concept. http://www.understandingrace.org/ a project from the American Anthropological Association explains why it is both void and invalid. Although it would not surprise me that you use a term lacking in validity when you sidestep the issue of Race ideology completely. U.S.A like many other post colonial, 'multicultural' countries has a history of 'White' culture enjoying a hegemonic position over society. This has resulted in other ethnic groups being marginalized and subordinated. One of the tools they used to maintain their dominance was Race Ideology. Which attempted to divert attention away from the very real social and political oppression and instead place the blame on the victims.

This was done by attempting to establish that the reason they were in their position was because of their inferior 'race'. While simultanousley defended the dominant position of the 'White' group by expressing they are in their position due to their natural advantages.

This pride you speak of, directly challenges that and attempts to create an equal situation. Where a person can be of equal value, regardless of their ethnicity. Although it is met with barriers, as often people from the dominant group have become quite used to their position of dominance. Indeed they have in many instances confused privilege with rights. The very fact that other ethnic groups and cultures are displacing them from their throne is cause for alarm. Hence even after all the damage they have done, through forced assimilation, ethnocide, Race ideology they still try and put the blame on the victims. To this end they try to claim that these attempts to elevate the marginalized peoples and cultures to an equal status to that of 'white' culture is racist.

Not to offend, but I've seen you post before and quite frankly, have no idea many times what you're talking about each time you post. You go far too in depth in a way that I can't explain. Call it laziness, call it lack of interest in trying to decipher what you're saying. If you'd like to translate your talk into a language I can understand, I'd be glad to respond( in other words, feel free to "talk down" to my ignorant little mind, I won't be offended :)). I will say this-what little I can gather from your posts, you seem to think that it's all "whitey's" fault in some way, that white people have kept all others down by some means that even "we" don't understand or know about.

Originally Posted by Deji-chan

Well, if we go by that logic, all men and women are created equal! But they're not. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. exists, and people who say it's in the past are dreaming. Would a white person, such as myself, give up the privileges I have in society for a pride rally? I think not. And I'd much rather the right to marry someone of the same sex than have the gay pride parade and a million pins.

Ideally, we should be proud only of our accomplishments. But some people cannot accomplish as much because of their race, creed, etc.

EDIT: Take African Americans for a example. compared to I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here and say that they are not equal yet. This makes perfect sense to me, considering the history I learned in school. Martin Luther King Jr. was killed in 1968, after all, and they still didn't have all their rights as human beings. I say, give them their pride.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...he statistics.

We should all be created equal, but truthfully we are not, but I mean that in the way that each one of us has some something different that makes us not equal to others. For instance, the biggest difference is between men and women. I do NOT believe that some people cannot accomplish as much because of their race, creed, etc. Almost anyone can achieve their goals if they truly put every single part of them towards it and refuse to give up-and I say almost because their is always an exception to the rule. An example would be that there is probably never going to be a woman as Mr. Universe. I don't believe that the exception would be because of race, creed, etc. though, but due to circumstance or timing, call it luck or bad luck if you will.

Yes, prejudice DOES still exist. I think we all have it in some area of us towards something, but I believe in many, maybe most of us, it's not at a level that will interfere in such a way as to hinder ourselves or others. We ARE individuals, and I see nothing wrong will pointing out our differences. They are what make us who we are as individuals. I only see a problem when those differences are used to to harm someone else.

Originally Posted by Oukan

I'm going to disagree with you on this cause I feel that Americans are proud and do say they are proud all the time. We have the American flag that we proudly display in almost every big business. Many people buy only American made products. Our farmers in America get a lot of benifits and recognition. There is vetrans day and other American holidays such as the 4th of July. I think your just over looking all of these things.

That happened to be the only other thing besides ones self and accomplishments that I saw nothing wrong with being proud of, is being proud of being an American. Much of that is because of what we have accomplished together as a nation, but it's mostly because I do believe that we, as a country, need to stand together lest we fall to the dominance of another country. But I feel that towards anyone and their country.

Going to jump in with my own opinion here... Many people see pride as a bad thing, but I choose to disagree. I have had issues in my life about disliking myself, being ashamed of what and who I am, not for long, mostly teenage angst, but enough to make me think. In america, for all it's successes and faults, being caucasian and straight, possibly christian is still seen as the norm. So many people are ashamed, sad and self hating when they deviate from this norm that when they can over come that and find in it something to be proud of, I want to cheer them. I embrace their pride and in return am proud of them for finding the strength where many would insist there is weakness. Black history month celebrates what those with a darker color have accomplished despite the obstacles unfairly set in their way. It celebrates taking something seen by others as a handicap and embracing it, making it a strength. Honestly I don't celebrate many other holidays outside the major american ones, but that's mostly because I choose not to participate in many hoidays. (I spent the last fourth of July curled up with my dad watching old movies)

In my opinion, pride is loving yourself and what you've accomplished. Acknowledging what others have accomplished and feeling proud of them. It is only a bad thing when it goes to the point of hurting others, of making you intolerant of any NOT like you. That is the only time I see pride as a bad thing...

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

Not to offend, but I've seen you post before and quite frankly, have no idea many times what you're talking about each time you post. You go far too in depth in a way that I can't explain. Call it laziness, call it lack of interest in trying to decipher what you're saying. If you'd like to translate your talk into a language I can understand, I'd be glad to respond( in other words, feel free to "talk down" to my ignorant little mind, I won't be offended :)). I will say this-what little I can gather from your posts, you seem to think that it's all "whitey's" fault in some way, that white people have kept all others down by some means that even "we" don't understand or know about.

No offence taken in the slightest, one can hardly expect people to be masters in every field. Indeed I can understand what you mean, as I have a friend majoring in linguistics and when he tries to talk about his studies to me I question whether he is still speaking English :|

Firstly I will clarify that I am not saying that white people are evil or anything. But rather that because their culture and position in society was dominant, this has created an inequality. On the cultural side, people from other cultures were discriminated against quite strongly. Sometimes as directly as having key elements from their culture made illegal (for instance in the case of Native Americans, parts of their religion was illegal for a while). People from cultures other than that which was dominant were made to feel inferior.

It was not only on the cultural front, but also in popular myths. One of these myths which I mentioned is Race Ideology. Which claimed that there are different biological races, each with their own genetic differences. It was because of these differences that some races were superior to others. (This was even used initially to validate slavery). People who were white were held to be of the highest stock, because of this genetic advantage it was also argued that their culture was most civilized.

Ethnic pride is directly challenging these assumptions and trying to create a more equal environment. Where we can live in a society where there is not one culture dominating all others. But rather each culture in its own right is seen as being equally valid. What does this have to do with the pride?

They are saying that they are proud to be who they are, that they no longer need to feel ashamed that they are not white. That belonging to a different ethnic group or culture does not make them inferior.

Have I better clarified my point?
Also you have great taste in your font colour!

We should all be created equal, but truthfully we are not, but I mean that in the way that each one of us has some something different that makes us not equal to others. For instance, the biggest difference is between men and women. I do NOT believe that some people cannot accomplish as much because of their race, creed, etc. Almost anyone can achieve their goals if they truly put every single part of them towards it and refuse to give up-and I say almost because their is always an exception to the rule. An example would be that there is probably never going to be a woman as Mr. Universe. I don't believe that the exception would be because of race, creed, etc. though, but due to circumstance or timing, call it luck or bad luck if you will.

Yes, prejudice DOES still exist. I think we all have it in some area of us towards something, but I believe in many, maybe most of us, it's not at a level that will interfere in such a way as to hinder ourselves or others. We ARE individuals, and I see nothing wrong will pointing out our differences. They are what make us who we are as individuals. I only see a problem when those differences are used to to harm someone else.

Circumstances and timing are precisely the point! Do you see an African American being president in the 1900s? It would be impossible simply because he or she is African American. They could try all their lives but they wouldn't get anywhere--most likely they'd be shot the moment they spoke about it. You could have had hundreds of African Americans who truly wanted to become president of this country, but not one of them would have had even the slightest chance. There would never be a time where every race had an equal shot at this country's president election. Not to mention the fact that they didn't have proper education at the time. Soon, maybe Caucasians will be the "inferior" race in our culture, and we will be the ones trying our hardest to achieve what other races can do easily.

How is prejudice not hindering? Even the smallest amount is a small disadvantage, which would make things harder to accomplish. But prejudice is not in such small amounts. Think of all the hate crimes committed. I believe being brutally murdered would hinder one's ability to accomplish one's goals. Even without such drastic measures, imagine an openly gay man taking major office. Harvey Milk did it, among a few others, but it is still much harder than a straight person getting the job. Because of all the major disadvantages they have, why shouldn't they get their Pride? They are the underdog. Who does it harm?

Woah I just realized I had posted a tiny simple remark when this thread was in a full blown debate. XD I didn't even make a dent in anyone's opinion.

Originally Posted by Oukan

Woah I just realized I had posted a tiny simple remark when this thread was in a full blown debate. XD I didn't even make a dent in anyone's opinion.

xD Sometimes it happens. I didn't disagree with your post, so I didn't comment on it. But yes, we Americans do have a fair amount of pride ourselves. ^^

@Firemare: What you said about loving yourself and what you've accomplished is mostly what I mean, with a few differences. I don't see loving yourself as having pride. To me, that's more a feeling of acceptance of who and what your are and being comfortable in your own skin so to speak. Being proud of your own accomplishments is a good thing. If you sit around all your life just breathing air and never doing anything, you have nothing to be proud of-merely being a color or gender is nothing to be proud of. It gets you no where. It does nothing for you or anyone else.

@Reddeath26: Whew! I was hoping you wouldn't take offense-I didn't quite know how to word that :). I have a feeling you have a strong educational background in an area that leads you to speak on this subject in the manner you do, and you pegged the feeling of how I can't grasp your words with your example of your friend. And Thank You for the compliment on my font! Your name is REDdeath26-YOU should be using red :lol:! It gets to be a pain to do every single time though.

I understand your points clearer now, but will admit it still isn't coming together in regards to this subject until your last paragraph. I agree in that no one should be ashamed of who and what they are unless they are a criminal of some sort, or just a despicable person. But being proud of something that they have no control over doesn't make much sense to me. Again, you have done nothing for yourself or others by merely being a color, gender, ethnicity, etc.


@Deji-Chan: If whites were to become the "inferior" race, it doesn't mean we should stop trying to achieve our goals. We will just have to try harder. Maybe time and circumstance won't be on "our" side, but it won't mean we have accomplished nothing even if we don't achieve our own personal goals. "Our" sacrifices and work will serve to help others who are trying to achieve the same goals. THAT is something to be proud of, not a color, gender, or religion.

Most of our small prejudices don't harm others in any significant way. I also don't see them ever disappearing. We may as well accept that part of ourselves instead of trying to deny it to ourselves and others. I'm probably thinking of prejudice on a different scale than you are, though. Maybe you are thinking of them on the scale of true bigotry and racism.


@Oukan: Just join right in! I WISH I knew how to express myself with such short responses, but I find it impossible to do on some subjects.

I put this to you. If you owned a business. And was hiring an employee. Say you owned a resturaunt. A nice one. You have several people applying for the job. Who would you hire. Someone who came dressed in a tee shirt with vulgar language on it, pants hanging halfway down their butt, and nasty looking hair who spoke in a manner that you couldnt half understand what they say. Oh and they are white. Or a well dressed person with clean hair a pleasant manner and spoke coherently. Oh they are black. Hmmmmmm. The one who is black based on appearance and manner. Now reverse them. Hmmmmmmm The one that is white. I wont say there is no racism out there but I would base my own opinion on apperance and manner before I would on race. That stated if you want a better job and more oppurtunity then act the part. If you dont put effort into what you want you cant expect others to put effort into you. I think a lot is based on attitude and appearance not race anymore. They say you are what you eat well you are also what you present yourself to be. Race aside.

i want to say THANK YOU!

i've been saying this for years. either everyone should have pride or nobody should have pride. have pride in being yourself, not all these little things that people are representing themselves with. i don't want to be viewed as white or gay or american, i want to be viewed as mia. that's why i do not participate in ANY pride groups or events. saying "i'm gay/white/american/black/whatever!" shouldn't be how someone opens a conversation.

sorry i didn't read through all of the replies, just a few. this is just my point of view on the topic.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

@Reddeath26: Whew! I was hoping you wouldn't take offense-I didn't quite know how to word that :). I have a feeling you have a strong educational background in an area that leads you to speak on this subject in the manner you do, and you pegged the feeling of how I can't grasp your words with your example of your friend. And Thank You for the compliment on my font! Your name is REDdeath26-YOU should be using red :lol:! It gets to be a pain to do every single time though.

Haha yeah I have noticed how you take the time to ensure your style of text stays constant. I was actually quite impressed when I noticed this during one of your posts where you had multiple quote tags. As for myself using red, it is typically the colour I have my font set to on msn and on another forum where I was able to, I changed the colour of my username to red. I don't normally do it on forums, because I happen to be quite a lazy person.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

I understand your points clearer now, but will admit it still isn't coming together in regards to this subject until your last paragraph. I agree in that no one should be ashamed of who and what they are unless they are a criminal of some sort, or just a despicable person. But being proud of something that they have no control over doesn't make much sense to me. Again, you have done nothing for yourself or others by merely being a color, gender, ethnicity, etc.

Yeah the initial part of my post was describing the inequalities which they have been historically faced with (and still are in many instances). I then attempted to explain the role in which their pride is used to try and overcome these inequalities.
It is quite unfortunate that the conditions which they are in response to still exist in many instances. What makes it so much worse is we have academics who still try to promote this inequality as being 'natural'. Ahhh they wind me up so much!!

As for being proud of something like ethnicity, I find this to be quite acceptable. Although ethnic groups are quite slippery and open to many different understandings. I myself view them as an identity, which comes as a result of internal and external identification. Namely the person identifies as belonging to X ethnicity and others confirm this to be correct by accepting their choice.

I don't really agree. White people have all kinds of celebrations. It depends on what race you are. The "proud to be American" day is Independance Day. What does a white person have to be proud of anyways? If they ar german, they can be proud of that. As with French, English, etc. But a lot of Americans are Mutts. A mix of different white races. So they are just american, and there is nothing wrong with being American.

And Christians profess that they are proud to worship jesus and walk with the lord and all that bullshit. Some people bash them, sure, but they are still the majority. So more people are giving them "hallelujah!"s and all that jazz. Most of us just ignore them in person. Wouldn't want to catch the crazies.

Anyways, people ae racist and sexist and all kinds of things. But there isn't that much of a double standard in my opinion.