Originally Posted by Nalah Sin

Might be another cultural difference, but here we have very few pescetarians who think that way. Most do it either because they simply don't like the taste of meat/prefer the taste of fish or simply because fish is the more healthy way of getting your fill of animal protein.

Might just be me :P I seem to attract odd people. The first "vegetarian" I knew ate chicken, so.

Just change, and if changing to more humane ways would kill off the industry, my country would have been blown off the maps long ago. Yet here we are, with a healthy economy (despite all that homebrew economical disaster that nowadays everybody seems to quote in order to defend war/inhumane killing/forcing down CO2 and other stuff mother natures throat). Did we loose lots of jobs to organic production? I dare say it's the other way round, it takes a lot more workers (who work in far better conditions) to care for happy meat.

My assumption that we would lose a few jobs was based on the industries making slightly smaller profits and cutting workers to try and raise those profits back up, though eventually re-hiring some when things settled down a bit. However, from what you've said, I now have some hope that wouldn't be the case.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Might just be me :P I seem to attract odd people.

Strange, normally that's my part! :D

But it really might just be the cultural difference this time. Most of our veg*ans and semis tend to be so for health reasons only (probably exactly because all in all there are by far better conditions on our farms and slaughterhouses), so I guess that's why pescetarians are, too.

Or maybe I'm just lucky with the people I know.

The first "vegetarian" I knew ate chicken, so.

Can't blame them - I think I would die without my occasional share of chicken. ;)

Maybe that vegetarian just forgot the small (yet important) "semi" before their self-proclaimed title? I've seen that done before, mostly because it can be a bit exhausting to explain the concept to others.

(Side note: I just wikied whether, like with pescetarians, there was a name for that particular kind of semis, and finally came across a term that perfectly fits my diet. I hereby proclaim myself a flexitarian! :D)

My assumption that we would lose a few jobs was based on the industries making slightly smaller profits and cutting workers to try and raise those profits back up, though eventually re-hiring some when things settled down a bit. However, from what you've said, I now have some hope that wouldn't be the case.

That wasn't completely directed towards you but rather the "that will kill our economy" argument. I'm all too well aware how business people tend to deal with smaller profits (ugh, did you read about how those freaking bastards - pardon the tone, I hate capitalists with all of my heart - who brought about the financial crisis are now getting paid millions for "reducing costs" by axing hundreds of people?), but like you said - after a while either things settle down and good companies (or large farms) take over, or people will start to riot.

Sadly, since most people don't care, without strict regulations nothing will be changed.
(And worse yet, the European Union is fighting against our regulations right now. So instead of your country becoming more like ours, it's probably more like the other way round. :( )

Originally Posted by Nalah Sin

Strange, normally that's my part! :D

But it really might just be the cultural difference this time. Most of our veg*ans and semis tend to be so for health reasons only (probably exactly because all in all there are by far better conditions on our farms and slaughterhouses), so I guess that's why pescetarians are, too.

That makes sense. And I think our fish populations are in worse shape as well, which further explains the difference in reasoning.

Can't blame them - I think I would die without my occasional share of chicken. ;)

No, she ate it with pretty much every meal XD She announced that she had gone vegetarian over a lunch of buffalo wings.

Maybe that vegetarian just forgot the small (yet important) "semi" before their self-proclaimed title? I've seen that done before, mostly because it can be a bit exhausting to explain the concept to others.

You'd be surprised how many people here genuinely think 'vegetarianism' just means limiting your meat intake or only eating one kind of meat. When I first went vegan, my entire family thought I meant what "vegetarian" really means because they thought 'vegetarian' diets included meat and knew I was more strict than that. Which caused some rather awkward moments, like when my aunt fixed me deviled eggs. >.<

(Side note: I just wikied whether, like with pescetarians, there was a name for that particular kind of semis, and finally came across a term that perfectly fits my diet. I hereby proclaim myself a flexitarian! :D)

Haha, nice. I recently came across the term 'beegan', which is an otherwise vegan who uses/eats bee products like honey. I have no intention of calling myself such, and many wouldn't consider me a vegan anywho (I haven't just tossed out many of the leather things I got before I went vegan and I have several pieces of jewelry that use materials from animals who died natural deaths), but I found it interesting nevertheless.

That wasn't completely directed towards you but rather the "that will kill our economy" argument. I'm all too well aware how business people tend to deal with smaller profits (ugh, did you read about how those freaking bastards - pardon the tone, I hate capitalists with all of my heart - who brought about the financial crisis are now getting paid millions for "reducing costs" by axing hundreds of people?), but like you said - after a while either things settle down and good companies (or large farms) take over, or people will start to riot.

Oh, I know it wasn't directed at me. I just wanted to let you know that you opened my eyes a bit :P

i don't have anything against vegetarians, one of my best friends is one, but i could never go without eating meat. i just don't like eating any form of pig. i'm just not too fond of the flavor, plus i've heard pigs are really smart. i'd really rather have one as a pet. i love pigs! <3 they're so cute!
i just do my best not to think of where my meat comes from. knowing that it came from an animal is torture to me. i would never be able to raise an animal for food. i'd just get too close to it! it was like that when i was a kid. we had some chickens, and my dad and one of our neighbors killed a few for our dinner. it was so hard for me and my mom to eat them since we raised them from chicks.

I am one of those weird people who believe that plants have feelings as well as animals. So I eat both plants and animals. Furthermore, personally I don't think I'd see anything wrong with eating people (well other than the fact that it's illegal and that people would probably taste gross, just look at all the stuff people put in their bodies)

Hmmm, it seems Im a bit late to this thread... Oh whell, Ill just hop in.

I am a vegetarian, and have quite strong views on the subject of eating meat. I believe it is wrong and if everyone was vegetarian it would mean less slaughter and killing in the world. Some people call me sentimental, but that is my view. So what are your views?

Do you eat meat? Do you think it's wrong?

No, I dont eat meat. Ive been a ovalacto vegetarian for four years and couting (I make exceptions for people though if they irritatew me enough.) I don't believe that the conditions that animals are kept in in my counry are right. I mean come on, if a cow is going to die shouldnt it stay relitively unharmed before it does?

I dont believe that it's right to eat animals but I understand that not everyone wants to up and quit eating meat just because I want them to. Also, another reason I became a vegetarian is that from what I heard it helps the environment (the grain that can feed a cow for a day can feed a vegetarian for a week and all that jazz)

Random p.s-
Who here is struggling with trying to be a vegetarian?

i was vegetarian
but i realized something.
eating meat is a natural way of life. if animals dont eat mean its because they were built to not eat meat. they dont need to survive on it.
but humans and other carnivores and omnivores we do need to survive on meat.
when i was veggi i got alot weaker no joke. and i still drank a good amount of milk.
people told me i could get all my nutrients from vitamins and pills.
but you can't you really cant.
its unhealthy to take supplements alone and some are even lethal alone.
animals eat other animals
sure i think it would be awesome if there was a way to kill them without the torture of machines.
but it seriously is the way of life.
think about it
lions eat gazelles
hawks eat mice
snakes eat eggs
its all natural
they have to strive to survive just like us.

i do like the idea though of only killing males and making sure the females have a way to get impregnated and give birth so we dont endanger anymore animals.

Originally Posted by zombie_pirate

lions eat gazelles
hawks eat mice
snakes eat eggs
its all natural

Hawks, snakes, and lions are carnivores. If they ate plants at all, they would die. Their systems are vastly different from ours, as we are omnivores.

Also, if you got weaker while you were vegetarian, it's most likely because you weren't being careful and paying attention to what nutrients you were getting. A poor diet will kill you regardless of whether or not it includes animal products.

I notice a sore lack of attention to the fact that humans are made of meat. This can only mean that we're meant to consume our dead, right?

Originally Posted by Philomel

Hawks, snakes, and lions are carnivores. If they ate plants at all, they would die. Their systems are vastly different from ours, as we are omnivores.

Also, if you got weaker while you were vegetarian, it's most likely because you weren't being careful and paying attention to what nutrients you were getting. A poor diet will kill you regardless of whether or not it includes animal products.

We are omnivores. That means we eat both. We can and we should per the FOOD PYRAMID.
PRAISE THE FOOD PYRAMID!

I have not known a vegetarian who lived a healthy life without supplement pills or without feeling weak.
If you really got find these out of the ordinary foods just to get your daily protein, that is not good.

Most people here declaring to be vegetarian and how great it is haven't lived long enough as a vegetarian.

Originally Posted by Doomfishy

I notice a sore lack of attention to the fact that humans are made of meat. This can only mean that we're meant to consume our dead, right?

How so? Lions eat meat, and they don't eat each other.

Originally Posted by Double S

How so? Lions eat meat, and they don't eat each other.

Some humans eat each other. Cannibalism? It is just legally and morally wrong.

Originally Posted by Tsukipon

[COLOR="Blue"][I]We are omnivores. That means we eat both. We can and we should per the FOOD PYRAMID.
PRAISE THE FOOD PYRAMID!

Yes. We are not carnivores. "Omnivore" simply means we can eat both meat and plants. Doesn't mean we should or we must. We can get all of our hydration from our own urine for quite some time. Doesn't mean we should.

I have not known a vegetarian who lived a healthy life without supplement pills or without feeling weak.

And I have known plenty who do. We have discussed this before, Tsukipon. It is a fact that, pre-existing dietary conditions aside, you can easily survive and flourish as a vegetarian or vegan. The only reason meat eaters (in the US, Europe, etc., anyway) suffer malnutrition less often than vegetarians is because they can, unless they have an allergy, eat anything. It's only by chance that they get what they need.

You know, I like how people keep saying, "BUT OUR ANCESTORS!", and yet they drink milk. Drinking milk past infancy is not natural, and drinking belonging to another species is definitely not natural. We have trained our bodies to be able to handle it, but this was not always the case. We are naturally lactose-intolerant. If you really want to go with what's "natural", stop using dairy.

If you really got find these out of the ordinary foods just to get your daily protein, that is not good.

"Out of the ordinary"? What are you talking about? I'm not sure what constitutes "out of the ordinary". Everything I eat can be found at WalMart, and fairly cheap, or at a local farmers' market, or I grow it myself. I am healthier than I ever was as a meat-eater, I monitor what vitamins I'm getting, and I don't eat things just because they taste good. Had I not gone vegan, I would still be anemic, and I would still be getting too much fat and protein and not enough of the good stuff.

Most people here declaring to be vegetarian and how great it is haven't lived long enough as a vegetarian.

Uh huh. And the huge population of vegetarians and near-vegetarians in India and rural China and parts of Japan? Well, I guess several hundred years isn't enough to tell.

Double S: Actually...they do. Male lions regularly kill and eat cubs. They don't eat their own because that would defeat the purpose of becoming the leader of a pride, and they don't eat most healthy adults because the risk isn't worth the reward and if it were a member of their pride, it would cause more harm than good, but it does happen.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Double S: Actually...they do. Male lions regularly kill and eat cubs. They don't eat their own because that would defeat the purpose of becoming the leader of a pride, and they don't eat most healthy adults because the risk isn't worth the reward and if it were a member of their pride, it would cause more harm than good, but it does happen.

This happens when a male takes over a pride. He eats the cubs because they are technically enemies. They usually just kill them, though they may consume them.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Yes. We are not carnivores. "Omnivore" simply means we can eat both meat and plants. Doesn't mean we should or we must. We can get all of our hydration from our own urine for quite some time. Doesn't mean we should.

Urine contains amonnia. Biology 101. We would be poisoning ourselves. So there is no possibility of doing so.
I don't see why we shouldn't eat meat. If we shouldn't, we would be herbivores.

Originally Posted by Philomel

And I have known plenty who do. We have discussed this before, Tsukipon. It is a fact that, pre-existing dietary conditions aside, you can easily survive and flourish as a vegetarian or vegan. The only reason meat eaters (in the US, Europe, etc., anyway) suffer malnutrition less often than vegetarians is because they can, unless they have an allergy, eat anything. It's only by chance that they get what they need.

I don't know any who don't bruise easily or aren't of healthy weight. Twigs eating twigs so to speak.

Originally Posted by Philomel

You know, I like how people keep saying, "BUT OUR ANCESTORS!", and yet they drink milk. Drinking milk past infancy is not natural, and drinking belonging to another species is definitely not natural. We have trained our bodies to be able to handle it, but this was not always the case. We are naturally lactose-intolerant. If you really want to go with what's "natural", stop using dairy.

I don't believe that BS. Provide the facts for that statement please.
Besides, I am lactose-intolerant. And dairy is in the food pyramid.

Originally Posted by Philomel

"Out of the ordinary"? What are you talking about? I'm not sure what constitutes "out of the ordinary". Everything I eat can be found at WalMart, and fairly cheap, or at a local farmers' market, or I grow it myself. I am healthier than I ever was as a meat-eater, I monitor what vitamins I'm getting, and I don't eat things just because they taste good. Had I not gone vegan, I would still be anemic, and I would still be getting too much fat and protein and not enough of the good stuff.

We don't have Walmart or a famer's market in NYC. Most peoplei niNYC live in apartments and can't go our own vegetables. If I have to "monitor" my intake on food for vitamins and everyone just to eat, it is not good. No one is saying eating 20 lbs of meat because it tastes good. Everything is good in moderation. Including meat and vegetables. You are healthy now, but how old are you? How long have you been a vegetarian? If you are healthier now, it means you were too busy consuming all the wrong foods. Sad for you. Because it happened to work for you and reverse whatever bad symptoms you had, doesn't mean it will work for everyone. For some, they get anemic as being a vegetarian.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Uh huh. And the huge population of vegetarians and near-vegetarians in India and rural China and parts of Japan? Well, I guess several hundred years isn't enough to tell.

Do you know them personally? Have you looked up stats in those areas?
Besides Japan does not have much meat considering they are an island and meat is usually for special occasions. But they consume a lot of fish. Fish is normal over there. I don't know much about china or India, but I happen to know a lot about Japan. People think them vegetarians but they aren't. They just don't have so much meat at their disposal like we do in the US.

Originally Posted by Tsukipon

Urine contains amonnia. Biology 101. We would be poisoning ourselves. So there is no possibility of doing so.

Incorrect. There are plenty of instances in which people who did not have access to water have survived several times longer than they would have otherwise by drinking their own urine. There's a less....necessary but more common practice involving reindeer, but for the sake of decency I won't go into it here. Also, human urine contains relatively low levels of ammonia. A little bit does not mean instant death.

I don't see why we shouldn't eat meat. If we shouldn't, we would be herbivores.

And no one has said we shouldn't. Kindly don't start that again.

I don't know any who don't bruise easily or aren't of healthy weight. Twigs eating twigs so to speak.

What does bruising have to do with anything? Also, your personal experiences do not discount reality. Maybe you just know very irresponsible people.

I don't believe that BS. Provide the facts for that statement please.

http://www.plos.org/cms/node/483

A quote from the site: "The study, published August 28, explains how Europeans evolved to drink milk as adults (lactase persistence). The findings suggest that lactase persistence began around 7,500 years ago, and further confirm that the ability to drink milk as an adult has been a coevolutionary process between genetics and agricultural development."

I used to have a very good source that went into detail on the hows and whys of us starting to drink non-human milk, but I lost it when my computer died.

It actually nearly cut off early trade between Native Americans and Vikings, because the Native Americans had never practiced the drinking of milk of any animal other than humans, and so believed the Vikings had poisoned them when everyone who drank the milk the Vikings had brought them became sick.

Besides, I am lactose-intolerant. And dairy is in the food pyramid.

A food pyramid that has been edited repeatedly since its creation and which some nutritionists are pushing to include less meat and dairy and more vegetables and grains.

We don't have Walmart or a famer's market in NYC.

Erm, I know of at least one farmer's market in NYC (it was actually featured on Planet Green awhile back because it's apparently a model for how they should be run), and I find it hard to believe you guys don't have a Walmart.

Most peoplei niNYC live in apartments and can't go our own vegetables.

There are actually a lot of vegetables you can grow indoors, even with very little room (peppers are a perfect example).

If I have to "monitor" my intake on food for vitamins and everyone just to eat, it is not good.

Actually, it's what you should be doing :| That mentality is why meat-eaters get so much more protein and fat than they should.

No one is saying eating 20 lbs of meat because it tastes good. Everything is good in moderation. Including meat and vegetables. You are healthy now, but how old are you? How long have you been a vegetarian? If you are healthier now, it means you were too busy consuming all the wrong foods. Sad for you. Because it happened to work for you and reverse whatever bad symptoms you had, doesn't mean it will work for everyone. For some, they get anemic as being a vegetarian.

And all that had little to do with what I said, so I'm not sure how to even respond to it. I will say that I haven't said everyone should or could. However, the dietary label itself is not the problem. If you ate nothing but pork fat, you would die. Likewise, if I ate nothing but potatoes, I would die. It doesn't matter that your diet is based on animal flesh and mine's based on plant material; stupid dietary habits are stupid. It is based on the nutrients you're getting, not the source, and every vitamin and nutrient that humans need can be gotten from non-animal sources. B12 is the only thing we have a problem with, and it can be gotten in small amounts from traditional miso, homemade kimchi, root vegetables if you grow them yourself, and is found in nearly all multivitamins as few people, omnivores included, get as much as they should.

Do you know them personally? Have you looked up stats in those areas?
Besides Japan does not have much meat considering they are an island and meat is usually for special occasions. But they consume a lot of fish. Fish is normal over there. I don't know much about china or India, but I happen to know a lot about Japan. People think them vegetarians but they aren't. They just don't have so much meat at their disposal like we do in the US.

And many people are altogether vegetarians as fish can be expensive, especially considering how much is automatically shipped out of the country. That does not negate my point -- huge populations of people are vegetarian and vegan, have been for centuries, and they are generally quite healthy. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that vegetarianism or veganism is unhealthy or risky.

And yes, I have "looked up stats". Unlike you seem to, I research things before I say them. I spent several years learning about human dietary requirements, the possible risks and rewards of non-animal diets, and cultures that are not so focused on animal products and their cuisine and what I might be able to borrow from them before I even considered going vegan.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Incorrect. There are plenty of instances in which people who did not have access to water have survived several times longer than they would have otherwise by drinking their own urine. There's a less....necessary but more common practice involving reindeer, but for the sake of decency I won't go into it here. Also, human urine contains relatively low levels of ammonia. A little bit does not mean instant death.

I didn't say it did. Just in excess like you tried to claim before is not good.
There is a reason why it is waste.

Originally Posted by Philomel

And no one has said we shouldn't. Kindly don't start that again.

You said we shouldn't :

Originally Posted by Philomel
Yes. We are not carnivores. "Omnivore" simply means we can eat both meat and plants. Doesn't mean we should or we must. We can get all of our hydration from our own urine for quite some time. Doesn't mean we should.

Originally Posted by Philomel

What does bruising have to do with anything? Also, your personal experiences do not discount reality. Maybe you just know very irresponsible people.

I highly doubt both a gym teacher and health profession both are irresponsible.

http://www.plos.org/cms/node/483

A quote from the site:

"The study, published August 28, explains how Europeans evolved to drink milk as adults (lactase persistence). The findings suggest that lactase persistence began around 7,500 years ago, and further confirm that the ability to drink milk as an adult has been a coevolutionary process between genetics and agricultural development."

I used to have a very good source that went into detail on the hows and whys of us starting to drink non-human milk, but I lost it when my computer died.

So it started so-and-so years ago. It became natural as we evolved to be able to tolerate it. Beside. I don't eat meat because it is natural. I eat it because it tastes so good. Like the burger I just had. Can't say ancestors ate burgers - not far back anyway. Can't say I cared about the cow before I ate it. Also, can't say I am going to gain 20 lbs and be unhealthy from one burger either. I like milk, even though whole milk makes me sick.

Originally Posted by Philomel

A food pyramid that has been edited repeatedly since its creation and which some nutritionists are pushing to include less meat and dairy and more vegetables and grains.

Yes. But meat isn't gone is it? I'm sure it will never be gone.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Erm, I know of at least one farmer's market in NYC (it was actually featured on Planet Green awhile back because it's apparently a model for how they should be run), and I find it hard to believe you guys don't have a Walmart.

Find one and let me know.

Also:

Believe it or not, there are year-round farmer's markets throughout New York City. These open-air markets offer visitors and residents alike to purchase a variety of products directly from suppliers. Greenmarket has run and managed farmer's markets throughout Manhattan and the boroughs since 1976.
There are 28 individual locations in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx, and Staten Island. Of these 28, 10 locations operate year-round. During peak season, over 100,000 customers visit the markets every week.

So you were right!? Wow. My apologies on that one. I have never seen one.

Originally Posted by Philomel

There are actually a lot of vegetables you can grow indoors, even with very little room (peppers are a perfect example).

I'm sure there are. I'm no farmer though. Again, it still is more on an inconvience to do things that way than just to buy meat and vegetables from the supermarket.

Originally Posted by Philomel;1765321120Actually, it's what you should be doing :| That mentality is [i

why[/i] meat-eaters get so much more protein and fat than they should.

Moderation. A lot of people misunderstand portion sizes and that is what happens. Not because we eat meat. Whether you eat meat or vegetables, moderation is key.

Originally Posted by Philomel

And all that had little to do with what I said, so I'm not sure how to even respond to it. I will say that I haven't said everyone should or could. However, the dietary label itself is not the problem. If you ate nothing but pork fat, you would die. Likewise, if I ate nothing but potatoes, I would die. It doesn't matter that your diet is based on animal flesh and mine's based on plant material; stupid dietary habits are stupid. It is based on the nutrients you're getting, not the source, and every vitamin and nutrient that humans need can be gotten from non-animal sources. B12 is the only thing we have a problem with, and it can be gotten in small amounts from traditional miso, homemade kimchi, root vegetables if you grow them yourself, and is found in nearly all multivitamins as few people, omnivores included, get as much as they should.


And many people are altogether vegetarians as fish can be expensive, especially considering how much is automatically shipped out of the country. That does not negate my point -- huge populations of people are vegetarian and vegan, have been for centuries, and they are generally quite healthy. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that vegetarianism or veganism is unhealthy or risky.

And yes, I have "looked up stats". Unlike you seem to, I research things before I say them. I spent several years learning about human dietary requirements, the possible risks and rewards of non-animal diets, and cultures that are not so focused on animal products and their cuisine and what I might be able to borrow from them before I even considered going vegan.

Hard to believe you research anything because it seems a lot of the tings you state seem to come from thin air or in your world. I look things up to sweetheart, I'm not just some insolent child. I just don't state facts like that without providing quotes or links.

Don't Let Philosophy Become More Important Than What Works.

Have you ever watched an animal being butchered? Unless you have experienced it many times, I bet you would feel quite bad watching it, let alone doing it yourself. Watching the butchering of an animal certainly helps people understand the passion that animal rights groups have in promoting a strict vegan (plant-based) diet.

From a moral and ethical perspective, I really appreciate the reasons for being a strict vegan. In fact, if I knew that I could be healthy on such a diet, I believe that I would return to being a strict vegan. The reality is that as far as recorded history is concerned, there has never been a population of people in our world that has lived on a strict vegan diet for an entire lifespan. Some populations have eaten mostly plant foods, but to my knowledge, there has not been a single population that has been on a 100 percent plant-based diet.

Well, my experiences with my own body and in providing health care to many people over the years have led me to believe that a long term, strict vegan diet is likely to lead to the development of nutritional deficiencies and significant health problems for most people. Whenever I have shared this view with people who are just getting started with and excited about a strict vegan diet, I am usually asked to consider specific people or communities that claim to thrive on a strict vegan diet, some for decades.

By Dr. Ben Kim http://chetday.com/strictvegandiet.htm

Well it may be possbile to live a healthy lifestyle a strict vegetarian, I doubt there were any STRICT VEGETARIANS for so mnay years in such high populations as you stated. We'lll see how it works for you in a few years or even decades if it takes that long.

Being a meat-eater, and eating veggies, seems to be a lot safer than being a strich vegan.

I'm not a vegetarian myself, but I do have friends who choose not to eat meat.

I've eaten meat all my life, and it's not that I look at it as wrong, but I can't see that much harm in it.
Yes, it is killing.
BUT, how many other animals do the same thing?

There are thousands of animals getting killed everyday by other animals for food. It's just part of life. It's tragic, but life.

I myself couldn't stand being a vegetarian, even though I love veggies :3

Originally Posted by Tsukipon

I didn't say it did. Just in excess like you tried to claim before is not good.
There is a reason why it is waste.

Yes, you did say it did. You said drinking it and remaining healthy was "not a possibility". And I said nothing about "excess". Merely that you could and nothing negative would come from it.

You said we shouldn't :

Oh, nice reading comprehension. No, I said that being able to do something was not a reason to do it, not that we shouldn't. Now you're grasping.

I highly doubt both a gym teacher and health profession both are irresponsible.

I don't. People can be stupid, even those who are otherwise intelligent. There is no logical reason why you would suddenly become weak and frail and unhealthy just because you were getting your nutrients from plants and not animals. It does not make sense, and if you'd take a moment to think, you'd see that. And since it is entirely possible to get everything you need without animal products, if you don't, you're not living a healthy life, you're not paying attention to what you're eating, and you're being irresponsible about your body.

So it started so-and-so years ago. It became natural as we evolved to be able to tolerate it.

Europeans. Other groups came much later, and some still haven't adapted entirely.

Beside. I don't eat meat because it is natural. I eat it because it tastes so good.

I don't care why you eat it. You (and others; hence the "people" and not "Tsukipon") have justified it by saying that our ancestors did it, it's what we've always done, yadda yadda yadda. We don't do what our ancestors did, and that's what I was bringing up. How that whole argument is faulty.

Also, can't say I am going to gain 20 lbs and be unhealthy from one burger either.

Um, who has said that, exactly?

Yes. But meat isn't gone is it? I'm sure it will never be gone.

I'm not. A lot of nutritionists have started advocating at least mostly vegetarian diets because of how unhealthy most meat is, at least in the US. And I was making a point -- that the "food pyramid" is not a nutrition god, it is prone to faults, and it changes often as we find out new things about our bodies. So you can't use it as "proof" we "need" meat and dairy. Besides, that's the recommended servings of everything omnivores eat. I doubt you eat all that, in the recommended servings, every day. By your logic, you and probably most of the country should be dead by now, since they're not obeying the Pyramid.

Find one and let me know.

http://www.bing.com/local/default.as...art%20in%20nyc

Listing of all WalMarts in and around NYC. There was another list I found from the WalMart company site, but they're probably the same. Enjoy.

I'm sure there are. I'm no farmer though. Again, it still is more on an inconvience to do things that way than just to buy meat and vegetables from the supermarket.

That's the way I choose to do things, but again, it isn't necessary (I'm not about to grow some exotic species of plant in my backyard, so what I grow can be bought at farmer's markets and supermarkets anyway, besides the fresh herbs).

Moderation. A lot of people misunderstand portion sizes and that is what happens. Not because we eat meat. Whether you eat meat or vegetables, moderation is key.

If by 'moderation' you mean 'paying attention to what you're putting in your face', yes. Meat eaters (nearly all of them in the US; there's no way a majority of meals should include meat as the main part) get too much protein and fat and too little fiber, and they do so because of your mentality: that if you're paying attention to what everything you eat has in it, something's got to be wrong with you. This should be what everyone, regardless of diet, does. If you're getting too little fiber, you should be paying attention so you can catch it and correct it. The same is true with all the vital nutrients and vitamins. Malnutrition is entirely possible for meat-eaters. The only person I've ever known who had a serious case of it ate mostly meat, and that was the problem. She lived off junk food, and was getting plenty of protein but nowhere near enough of anything else. After her body started giving her the finger and just not working right, she had to correct her diet.

Hard to believe you research anything because it seems a lot of the tings you state seem to come from thin air or in your world. I look things up to sweetheart, I'm not just some insolent child. I just don't state facts like that without providing quotes or links.

Do not call me sweetheart. And I have provided links. I don't provide links for most things because they seem like common sense. And no, you haven't stated facts and not provided links. You haven't stated facts at all. All you've done, your entire argument, has been based on personal experiences with other people. You don't know the exact specifics of what they did, you can't provide evidence to back anything up, you just say it and expect it to mean something.

Well it may be possbile to live a healthy lifestyle a strict vegetarian, I doubt there were any STRICT VEGETARIANS for so mnay years in such high populations as you stated. We'lll see how it works for you in a few years or even decades if it takes that long.

Erm, yes, they are strict vegetarians and vegans. Animal products just aren't an option, ergo, they are strict. It's just not intentional.

Being a meat-eater, and eating veggies, seems to be a lot safer than being a strich vegan.

For someone who knows nothing about nutrition, nothing about healthy diets, nothing about the risks of a diet including animal products, nothing about, you know, facts, oh yeah, I totally trust your assessment over anyone else's.

And how do you define "safe"? Your diet has a MUCH higher chance of killing you through foodborne illness, and there are far more potentially dangerous chemicals (many of which are known carcinogens) going into your body from your food than into mine, which means that in addition to your diet putting you at greater risk than I am for heart disease, it also puts you at higher risk for cancer. How does me having to pay a little attention to what I'm eating, like any dietician would tell you everyone should do regardless of dietary choice, negate all that and make your diet safer?

Originally Posted by Philomel

Do not call me sweetheart. And I have provided links. I don't provide links for most things because they seem like common sense. And no, you haven't stated facts and not provided links. You haven't stated facts at all. All you've done, your entire argument, has been based on personal experiences with other people. You don't know the exact specifics of what they did, you can't provide evidence to back anything up, you just say it and expect it to mean something.

That's why I don't get why you're still trying. By now her answers are bordering on troll behaviour: she's bringing up topics that have been gone through over and over again, she's deliberately turning around the words in your mouth, she's still stating that vegetarian diet is unhealthy because... because... just because (and I'm wondering where all those facts and links are hiding).

Erm, yes, they are strict vegetarians and vegans. Animal products just aren't an option, ergo, they are strict. It's just not intentional.

That's the typical "it didn't happen in the US, so it didn't happen at all" argument. Generations of Indians don't count, since they are far away and thus don't prove anything. :P

And how do you define "safe"? Your diet has a MUCH higher chance of killing you through foodborne illness, and there are far more potentially dangerous chemicals (many of which are known carcinogens) going into your body from your food than into mine, which means that in addition to your diet putting you at greater risk than I am for heart disease, it also puts you at higher risk for cancer.

The problem with this argument (in normal discussions - again, I don't believe this discussion has anything to do with common sense or facts anymore) is that malnutrition with a vegetarian diet is more obvious (which is a good thing - it makes for a nice warning system). It leads to symptoms that, though not lethal or in most cases not even serious health issues, easily show - it's hard to ignore when you're suddenly fainting! :P

Malnutrition from a meat based diet on the other hand mostly leads to symptoms that are easily taken for something else (fatique, shortness of breath, tachycardia, stomach troubles), especially since nowadays everybody has them. That doesn't mean they are any less serious - like you said, it's actually the other way round - but they are nice and dandy symptoms to ignore, until that one fatal day when you're diagnosed with heart problems or cancer.

And then of course it's not because you didn't care about the nutrients to provided your body with (or not, most of the time), but because of that evil carcinogenic paint your neighbour used for painting his house...

How does me having to pay a little attention to what I'm eating, like any dietician would tell you everyone should do regardless of dietary choice, negate all that and make your diet safer?

Like you said, everybody should take care of what they eat, and I think it both sad and disturbing that taking those five extra minutes is considered as "something wrong".

Originally Posted by Nalah Sin

That's why I don't get why you're still trying. By now her answers are bordering on troll behaviour: she's bringing up topics that have been gone through over and over again, she's deliberately turning around the words in your mouth, she's still stating that vegetarian diet is unhealthy because... because... just because (and I'm wondering where all those facts and links are hiding).

Eh, I feel sort of bad just outright ignoring people's posts, even if they're borderline trolling, and I'm not about to keep from posting in a thread altogether because one person keeps hounding me. Or maybe I'm just a masochist :P

That's the typical "it didn't happen in the US, so it didn't happen at all" argument. Generations of Indians don't count, since they are far away and thus don't prove anything. :P

Not to mention that malnutrition is a big problem in rural areas of India and, of course, has nothing to do with poverty and food shortage as a whole and everything to do with them being vegetarians.

The problem with this argument (in normal discussions - again, I don't believe this discussion has anything to do with common sense or facts anymore) is that malnutrition with a vegetarian diet is more obvious (which is a good thing - it makes for a nice warning system). It leads to symptoms that, though not lethal or in most cases not even serious health issues, easily show - it's hard to ignore when you're suddenly fainting! :P

Malnutrition from a meat based diet on the other hand mostly leads to symptoms that are easily taken for something else (fatique, shortness of breath, tachycardia, stomach troubles), especially since nowadays everybody has them. That doesn't mean they are any less serious - like you said, it's actually the other way round - but they are nice and dandy symptoms to ignore, until that one fatal day when you're diagnosed with heart problems or cancer.

And then of course it's not because you didn't care about the nutrients to provided your body with (or not, most of the time), but because of that evil carcinogenic paint your neighbour used for painting his house...

I've actually never thought about it that way, but yeah, you're completely right. I'd rather feel a little dizzy one day and realize there's a problem than feel perfectly fine for years and then start going blind or find out I have permanent organ damage or whathaveyou.

Like you said, everybody should take care of what they eat, and I think it both sad and disturbing that taking those five extra minutes is considered as "something wrong".

I was actually a little shocked that she said that, and I'm really hoping it's all just a big misunderstanding and she said something wrong. I mean, I live in Kentucky. I'm used to people not caring about their bodies XD But to say that there is something wrong with paying attention to what you're eating...That's extreme, even here.

I am a vegetarian, but I never try to force my habits unto anyone else. Having said that, I don't appreciate it when people wave meat in my face and chastise me because I am not eating right, or say things like "But how can you NOT?"

I was raised one and I have been ever since, and truthfully, I have eaten meat once. I was sick for a week afterwards. I do not think I could stomach it even if I wanted to, now.

I do not think it is right the way we slaughter animals. Have you ever seen a slaughterhouse? It truly is a terrible thing. As I am not one for killing of any kind unless it is to a group of anything that deserves it, it does seem cruel to me. If we could stop doing it in such mass numbers and so barbarically, I would have a totally different view on it.

Hello friend Philomel! Fancy MEATing you here. HUR HUR.

Anyhoo, I say eat what you want. Just not excessively. <_< That is my code.
Stopping the consumption of meat is not really going to save any animals, methinks. They still get slaughtered. Those poor chickens, so tender and delicious...

Originally Posted by iiAyaii

I'm not a vegetarian myself, but I do have friends who choose not to eat meat.

I've eaten meat all my life, and it's not that I look at it as wrong, but I can't see that much harm in it.
Yes, it is killing.
BUT, how many other animals do the same thing?

There are thousands of animals getting killed everyday by other animals for food. It's just part of life. It's tragic, but life.

I myself couldn't stand being a vegetarian, even though I love veggies :3

I love veggies too! And meat. But becareful what you bring up here. EVERYTHING about animals eating other animals it wrong.
@Philomel:

You know what? I just give up with you. You really aren't worth the time and effort and are too stubborn to understand. You read what you want to read and pick out what you don't like calling it "irrelevant". As for "trolling" - as if. I didn't know that defending my beliefs was called trolling? Like I am not talking about the topic of the thread?

You are funny talking about my reading comprehension? You can barely write much less understand. I have caught you many times, Double S has caught you many times. But you ignore those things.

And I don't know how else to portray the dangers of a vegetarian diet. I don't. I tried plain english but I don't think you can even understand, much less type it.

Being a vegetarian because of some animals being killed is so dumb. I can understand if it corrects some health issues one may have or if there are food allergies and whatnot. It doesn't work for eveyone. Eating meat is a lot healthier. You just have to know portion sizes and moderation.

I have already explained these things and I get tired of repeating myself.

Because I have decided to be the "grown-up", I'll let you claim your victory here. But it isn't a victory over the topic. You can't convince me or anyone that your diet is the best or that we are wrong for eating meat or that eating meat is wrong because some animals are suffering at the slaughterhouses. You win because you get the last word and I refuse to argue anymore.

But you know what? It doesn't matter. You will eat your veggies and I will eat my meat. You aren't going to change anyone's minds here. I am almost certain.. Especially since you are far away at some computer. So as you read this, I hope you feel so "big" and "proud". Because at the end of the day, I don't even care. This is actually fun to me. I don't take anything you say to heart because you do not even want to know what I think about you. ^_~

Originally Posted by Tsukipon

I love veggies too! And meat. But becareful what you bring up here. EVERYTHING about animals eating other animals it wrong.
@Philomel:

You know what? I just give up with you. You really aren't worth the time and effort and are too stubborn to understand. You read what you want to read and pick out what you don't like calling it "irrelevant". As for "trolling" - as if. I didn't know that defending my beliefs was called trolling? Like I am not talking about the topic of the thread?

You are funny talking about my reading comprehension? You can barely write much less understand. I have caught you many times, Double S has caught you many times. But you ignore those things.

And I don't know how else to portray the dangers of a vegetarian diet. I don't. I tried plain english but I don't think you can even understand, much less type it.

Being a vegetarian because of some animals being killed is so dumb. I can understand if it corrects some health issues one may have or if there are food allergies and whatnot. It doesn't work for eveyone. Eating meat is a lot healthier. You just have to know portion sizes and moderation.

I have already explained these things and I get tired of repeating myself.

Because I have decided to be the "grown-up", I'll let you claim your victory here. But it isn't a victory over the topic. You can't convince me or anyone that your diet is the best or that we are wrong for eating meat or that eating meat is wrong because some animals are suffering at the slaughterhouses. You win because you get the last word and I refuse to argue anymore.

But you know what? It doesn't matter. You will eat your veggies and I will eat my meat. You aren't going to change anyone's minds here. I am almost certain.. Especially since you are far away at some computer. So as you read this, I hope you feel so "big" and "proud". Because at the end of the day, I don't even care. This is actually fun to me. I don't take anything you say to heart because you do not even want to know what I think about you. ^_~

Quoted so you can't go deleting it later.

You know, Tsuki, you're hilarious. I "can't read"? Really? Insulting my literacy sk1llz is the best you could do for a flaming surrender post? I was expecting a lot of things, but that's a first. Nalah was right about you, it seems, and I guess I have no choice but to take her advice on you. I probably owe her fifty bucks now, somehow. Anywho, thanks for giving me a laugh. I needed it. :)