1 Timothy 2:12

ah yes! the controversial verse St. Paul wrote that women have no authority over men....

before you say that this verse is completely sexist, we first must examine the reason why the dude wrote the verse in the first place in order to show if he really is sexist or had a valid reason for writing it.

care to show us proof as to pin the dude as a sexist?

Originally Posted by MizumiO

I've never read my bible and I never will because I know more than 70% of it is falsefied. I do believe there is a god. Even if his or her name is not God. I've named him Val. And his wife Tabitha. And Jesus gets to be Jesus. It's only for when I pray for the safety and happiness of my friends and family. And I'm not blindly faithful either. Would I jump infront of a bullet if I knew absolutely that God would protect me? No. If that person was meant to get shot, they'll get shot.

Though I do have some issue's of my own. If god is Jesus's father and is the holy one... Why is Jesus our lord and savior? Why do 90% of people worship Jesus but not god? Aren't they breaking one of those comandment things by doing that?

Wow, holy boobs. What a farce. Look pal, Jesus and God the Father and the Spirit are one but also different identities. It's like how a girl can be a niece, daughter and girlfriend. She can change to take on different roles and things. I'm a sucky Christian because(no duh) I surf the web and do other stuff instead of praying but even I can tell you this.

Read the RECOVERY VERSION of the bible! For all you atheists who like to disect books, then check this out. They have footnotes that actually make sense.

Also...this reminds me to make say "What do atheists not see?"
May God have mercy on you.

Originally Posted by chong69

1 Timothy 2:12

ah yes! the controversial verse St. Paul wrote that women have no authority over men....

before you say that this verse is completely sexist, we first must examine the reason why the dude wrote the verse in the first place in order to show if he really is sexist or had a valid reason for writing it.

care to show us proof as to pin the dude as a sexist?

St. Paul would have been sexist by nature. At that time in history it would have been deemed completely normal to say that women had no part in the so-called business of men. So all you have to do is look at the social history of mankind to show that St. Paul was indeed sexist. Along with the rest of the population. Seeing that the moral zeitgeist has moved on since then, St. Paul today would be quite bigoted by modern standards.

And why examine why he said it? Did he not mean what he said? It wasn't at all vague. Neither the surrounding text. Unless he was joking.

And I'm sure St. Paul was a serious, serious man. Yuhuh.

Originally Posted by Girl in the Blue

Wow, holy boobs. What a farce. Look pal, Jesus and God the Father and the Spirit are one but also different identities. It's like how a girl can be a niece, daughter and girlfriend. She can change to take on different roles and things. I'm a sucky Christian because(no duh) I surf the web and do other stuff instead of praying but even I can tell you this.

Read the RECOVERY VERSION of the bible! For all you atheists who like to disect books, then check this out. They have footnotes that actually make sense.

Also...this reminds me to make say "What do atheists not see?"
May God have mercy on you.

For your first point: much better analogy than the boobs. However, surfing the web does not make you a sucky Christian.

For your third point: thank you. I must say that although the actual question is not, the title of this thread is actually a little offensive. ^^

@ kollusim: I agree with your analysis. And anyway, the New Testament is where you really have to keep in mind the historical context of when the books were written. They lived in a very different social climate, so not all of their teachings are still valid, i.e. Paul's statement that women have no authority. Religion - like everything else in the world - is not static. It changes and beliefs metamorphose as well.

Originally Posted by kollusim

St. Paul would have been sexist by nature. At that time in history it would have been deemed completely normal to say that women had no part in the so-called business of men. So all you have to do is look at the social history of mankind to show that St. Paul was indeed sexist. Along with the rest of the population. Seeing that the moral zeitgeist has moved on since then, St. Paul today would be quite bigoted by modern standards.

And why examine why he said it? Did he not mean what he said? It wasn't at all vague. Neither the surrounding text. Unless he was joking.

And I'm sure St. Paul was a serious, serious man. Yuhuh.

WOULD have been sexist? isn't that a bit jumpy?

and what about the point where you didn't take the bible seriously?

in that way of thinking, you then can't seriously take what the dude wrote/said as sexist because what he wrote/said ended up in the last place you intend to take seriously....

i know its a fallacy, but think about it... doesn't the lie often sound believable than the truth?

and oh! St. Paul wrote that verse for a couple of reasons. and its all over the net. i humbly suggest you look it up and try to discern them for yourself.

Though there are inconsistencies in the bible it does not prove it false. Putting that aside though we should touch on the underlying reason people flock to religion.

People need to believe in something outside themselves. It is a natural urge that has been present since higher thought developed through human evolution. The Bible and Christianity are just one way of accomplishing this. People need to believe there is goodness in the world. That they allow themselves be blinded is a choice that is not our place to insult.

To do that is to be prejudice. It would be like me disliking your for not believing. It is not my place to judge what you or do not think. It is not yours to tell a Christian they are or are not right. I personally believe in Goats. Yes I said goats. I needed something to believe in as a way to overcome my issues. I saw a goat and said somewhere hanging in the sky is a goat and that will be my god. It helps me to feel less alone. It is irrelevant that there is no goat int he sky. I chose to believe it and it becomes my reality.

It is my choice to put logic aside for my own mental health. Just like your choice to unbelieve is what helps you.

Most Christians I know are either ignorant or make their own rules that account for the fallacies in the bible. They all have their own interpretation of the religion, and some interpretations are just more common than others.
I am an atheist myself, and was brought up as such. Even the science teachers at my school however have fabricated ways to make their beliefs logical in their minds.
It isn't about the Christians 'not seeing', it is about them either not even knowing the fallacies exist or believing the religion but in a way that makes sense to them, while taking the fallacies into account.

Its really not that bad to believe in something...
And its not true that they don't let us question the Bible and or God..
I once confessed to a priest that I'm having doubt's about God
and he said it was alright because it was a good way for me to get to really know God
I'm sorry if those are already answered but i didn't get past page 2 before i skipped to the last part.
Also its not that bad to be a christian or a catholic or a muslim, since the bible and koran are just saying the same thing
and that's for us to be good and not be evil.
They just putted a few rules so we would know what to do...

Originally Posted by chong69

WOULD have been sexist? isn't that a bit jumpy?

and what about the point where you didn't take the bible seriously?

in that way of thinking, you then can't seriously take what the dude wrote/said as sexist because what he wrote/said ended up in the last place you intend to take seriously....

i know its a fallacy, but think about it... doesn't the lie often sound believable than the truth?

and oh! St. Paul wrote that verse for a couple of reasons. and its all over the net. i humbly suggest you look it up and try to discern them for yourself.

I never said I didn't take the bible seriously. If you can quote where I said that, it'd be helpful.

I prefer to investigate beyond the internet, as it can be rather misleading - especially surrounding religion. I will look further into it, though, and get back to you. Though I believe I've discerned enough, otherwise I'd have nothing to say here.

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Originally Posted by PocketNerd

It is my choice to put logic aside for my own mental health. Just like your choice to unbelieve is what helps you.

Doesn't insanity begin where logic ends? I do get your point, though. To each our own choices for our benefit.

The concept of reality is subjective. It is defined by what each person wishes it to be. It is our ability as a civilization to agree on what a societal ideal is that we are able to set laws and boundaries. In my opinion faith and religion transcends the societal ideal. Thus it becomes an area where each person in themselves creates a truth that works for them. Religion, though in some cases shared, is an individual pursuit. This means that what one believes is incapable of being defined as sane or insane it simply is.

@ PocketNerd: Quite so. It is probably impossible to truely define a religion by saying "they believe this" since each person has his or her own set of beliefs that may or may not conform to the generalization. And even among those whose beliefs do conform, each of those people will take a different perspective on their beliefs. My personal set of beliefs won't be the same as yours, and even on points that are similar, we probably won't even completely agree on. You worship a goat, and I worship a big bearded dude that I refer to as Dad. *shrug* But we both agree that there is someone/thing up there looking out for us.

I chose a goat at random. I have a friend who believes in a rock he carries in his pocket. It is simply the need to not be alone that drives us in faith something outside ourselves.

@ PocketNerd: Well, I sort of guessed that the goat thing was just something you pulled out as an example, even though I'm sorta serious about the fact that I do tend to refer to God as Dad sometimes. My point remains the same though.

We all believe in something, I think. Whether it be a God, a series of gods and godesses, or Science; We all believe in something. Personally, I turned away from religion a long time ago, and now I just believe in... well, the world. I believe in the good of mankind.

The differences between the alternative versions of Christian mostly defer in what they believe to be a parable and what they believe actually happened. Certain stories in the bible many people do not believe actually happened but the reason that they are there is to teach us a lesson.

Originally Posted by silenttiger43

The differences between the alternative versions of Christian mostly defer in what they believe to be a parable and what they believe actually happened. Certain stories in the bible many people do not believe actually happened but the reason that they are there is to teach us a lesson.

Which stories do you think people are more likely to believe and which ones do you think people wouldn't?

Originally Posted by Firemare

Evidence is rarely indicative of truth. Take for instace, Evolution. Controversial, I know, but it is just the latest in a long line of theories on why the next generation of any given thing looked the way it did. Each previous theory had merit! Even Darwin didn't have the idea that we accept today, he was a proponent of "blending" as I recall. It was Gregor Mendel whose theories, when incorporated into Darwin's become what is commonly recognised as the theory of Evolution today. The point being that many scientific views held today are wrong, and we know it! Modifying ALL textbooks to reflect the current thory in favor is foolish, meaning there can be no absolute truth, even from science. Scientists attempt to come closer to the truth. And while there are some people who hate homosexuality because "the bible tells them to" All they are really doing is misinterpreting the source to justify their own beliefs. The bible HAS homosexual evidence, and the same part that condemns all homosexuals, also condemns all sex, reinforces the property status of women and condones slavery! The bible is a tool for people to justify their beliefs when used in that manner, nothing more. It CAN be a tool of enlightenment and teaching compassion, but too often it isn't.

Very well written post. :D I could say more in regards to this topic, but I think some other people have already said what I would've said.

Well kollusim that all depends on people. There are those who take every single word of the Christian Bible literally and those who believe many, if not all the stories are just parables. It's those individual beliefs that create the different groups of Christian followers.

Personally I believe the many stories about Moses, however when it comes to Jonah being swallowed by a giant fish and surviving several days without being digested? Well I would consider that a parable.
When it comes to the creation of the earth, who's to say God didn't create the big bang? Who knows how long a day was at that point? It's possible it took a number of years for everything to grow and happen under His watchful eye.

Of course these are all my own view points on things. Feel free to question me however keep in mind that I don't have all the answers. I am always searching to challenge anything about my religion that doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe you can be certain of the truth unless you are always open to possibilities.

Also, very often the Bible is used for enlightenment and teaching compassion however as most things unfortunately are, the general population of the world hears only about the negative influences.

Originally Posted by silenttiger43

Well kollusim that all depends on people. There are those who take every single word of the Christian Bible literally and those who believe many, if not all the stories are just parables. It's those individual beliefs that create the different groups of Christian followers.

Personally I believe the many stories about Moses, however when it comes to Jonah being swallowed by a giant fish and surviving several days without being digested? Well I would consider that a parable.
When it comes to the creation of the earth, who's to say God didn't create the big bang? Who knows how long a day was at that point? It's possible it took a number of years for everything to grow and happen under His watchful eye.

Of course these are all my own view points on things. Feel free to question me however keep in mind that I don't have all the answers. I am always searching to challenge anything about my religion that doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe you can be certain of the truth unless you are always open to possibilities.

Also, very often the Bible is used for enlightenment and teaching compassion however as most things unfortunately are, the general population of the world hears only about the negative influences.

Thanks for answering my question. I have another, though - how does believing it actually helping aid you in your faith in comparison to things you believe to be parables? When faced with scientific evidence that proves false the certain stories you believe to be true, how does it affect you? Do you think that science has a place to prove and disprove the bible?

A lot of questions there, but I'm very interested in knowing. I try asking my family these questions about their faith (they're Catholic) but they think I'm trying to cause trouble. I'm keen for a sensible debate.

finally some one with f******* mine

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i mean if there was a god he would of ended this world a long time ago

Originally Posted by easy-e387

finally some one with f******* mine

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i mean if there was a god he would of ended this world a long time ago

This is not a very valid statement for debate. Try again without making yourself look ignorant, sir~

You remind me of my boyfriend, Shtona (an antitheist, not atheist though. Antitheists believe that not only is there no God, but that religion itself is bad for humanity--wars, prejudice, ignorance, etc). It is frustrating to think about. I enjoy the bible as the greatest story ever told, full of valuable lessons. I'm not religious (spiritual!) and this is my opinion, that there are things we can learn from the stories, that we can cite in our own lives. Maybe this is what Christians see in the bible? My mother is Catholic, and she loosely considers herself a Catholic (twice married, twice divorced, child nearly out of wedlock, numerous other big no-no's for women), but I don't think she would still consider herself a Catholic if she believed--like the book says--that because of her sins she will burn in hell. The concepts in the bible are a little strange...who can believe those first descendants of Adam and Eve lived for many hundreds of years before their death? Most Christians will admit that they don't agree with these details, that the dinosaurs were not really inspired creations by the devil. Anyway! What I suppose I'm saying is, people interpret the bible differently. What can I say about those die-hards that really believe those fine details?


...I call them idiots. But that is just my humble opinion as a woman who admires fact and the artifice of fiction, and the ability to tell the difference between the two.

I can't really see how people can just blindly follow something written in an old book. Could you imagine if someone found a modern day book & just automatically took it all for fact, based their lives on it, & prayed to a character every night? I like facts, things that have been proven many time. I'm not gullible enough to be christian. I think it's sad that so many people are.

Originally Posted by Liekomgz

I can't really see how people can just blindly follow something written in an old book. Could you imagine if someone found a modern day book & just automatically took it all for fact, based their lives on it, & prayed to a character every night? I like facts, things that have been proven many time. I'm not gullible enough to be christian. I think it's sad that so many people are.

*Ahem* Twilight *ahem*

Seriously. Its a good book- but a lot of people /do/ take it too seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if some girls- women even- prayed to Edward or Jacob every night >_<

Suppose that's a little off topic though. I just had to say it when I saw you post that ^^;

I've been told that the bible is a fasinationg read- yet I've still to get past the measurments. Perhaps I'm too used to normal books- where you start at the beginning, and then finish at the end, without skipping pages. *shrug*

I've learned that people will believe what people will believe. I've dated the most hardcore athiest I've ever met- and my best friend is super christian.
Myself? I'm rather spiritulalistic. I believe that everything on the earth is connected to each other, and that everything has a spirit and feelings to it. ^^;

Originally Posted by easy-e387

i mean if there was a god he would of ended this world a long time ago

How can you pretend to know what any sort of all-powerful omnipotent being's intentions are?