Demo, I think you're on the right track about athiest attitudes towards Christians.

That "man-made book for salvation" in beliefs.
I'm just saying- it is the origin by the inspiration of God. It's the source of belief that has survived the generations.
"it's people like you who bug Atheists"
I haven't had one atheist come up to me and tell me I've bugged them.. it seems that I have only bugged you.

Differences usually do bug people especially on such a topic. I cannot help that I truly believe in the bible, lol. I'm as positive about it as I am positive that I'm typing this right now. - if that's being close-minded well then I suppose I am in your perspective, but I'm willing to hear people out and answer their questions and concerns about my faith. I don't know how much more open I can be about it.

Note that I said "Atheists like the poster". Not all Atheists are hellbent on trying to disprove Christianity. And it's good that you aren't all offended, I was merely trying to get some points through, but you can't just expect me to forget that statement you made earlier. I am a Christian and proud of it, but, irregardless of the fact that my belief system is different from yours, I don't like that you label mine (or any others') ways of believing as wrong when you have no way of really proving your beliefs are any more right.

I also agree that your faith in Christ is what determines you a Christian. I believe but I have to admit that I struggle sometimes. One question, and I always think about this, do you think everything that happens was meant to happen?

Life is completely deterministic. There is no free will. Everything answers to causality. So yes, everything that happens is meant to happen as nothing can interfere and change it from happening.

Take Luke and Matthew for example: they are the only two books that even mention the birth of Christ (a very important subject for Christians) and they don't coincide. How do you read these books and first off: not notice it; and second: believe it?!

What do you mean by they don't "coincide"? If you mean they're not right next to each other than yeah, because it was 2 different people telling the story. And the birth of Christ isn't as important to Christians as his death. The holiday's have become popularized to prefer Christmas because of the gift giving.

Okies, first and foremost, don't destroy me if I am repeating something that has been said already. this debate is incredibly long, and I don't have time to try and read every post.
This sounds alot like a debate I saw on another site, and I will say here what I said there: Christianity and/or Judaism is not the only 'religion', nor are they the oldest. It started out as all faiths did, as a way to explain things that could not be explained in that day and age. But, it gradually became an incredible tangle of lies and half truths that over the years started being used to control the masses and lull them into complacancy.
That being said, this is not the case with all faiths. I won't further into that, because I have not studied enough about those other religions to be able to defend my post if I did go into detail.
It is pure laziness to sit back and take whatever you've been spoon fed your whole life as gospel without standing up and asking questions. That is the only way a person can grow. The same goes for atheists. Do you believe in nothing because it is just as convenient as believing in a doctrine of dogma passed down through generations of mere men? Or have you explored everything that you can up to this point to craft your beliefs? Do you even understand what atheism is? Could you be better desribed by another word if you researched a little deeper?
All I'm saying is that you have to figure out for yourself what you believe. And you have to have some legs to stand on, something to back it up with. Even if it is just a feeling deep within your being.

By the way, I am a pagan, and a witch in training.

I try very hard to be open-minded about this kind of stuff, but sadly, some Christians make it very hard for me to be open-minded to their religion. I'm saying some, not all.
For example, someone I used to be friends with had a dad who was so crazy into his religion that no matter what he was talking about, it was linked to the bible in one form or another.
He hated everything about her because she was a 'sinner' for wearing black nailpolish and other bullshit like that.
She wasn't allowed to even hold hands with a boy until she was married. He wasn't allowed to be anything but a Christian, not even Catholic. Yes, maybe those two religions are quite different, but they're similar enough that you would think that it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Every time I went over to her house, I would have to follow along in their conversations and pretend that I was a Christian as well.

And then this also goes with my father. He's not crazy like that (I hardly even got closely into detail about how crazy her dad is..), but he told me that he wanted to burn all of my books about Wicca and stuff that didn't follow his religion.
In fact, I was a vegetarian for a year and every time I saw him, he would tell me how animals were put onto this planet for the purpose of serving us. Animals are food and dogs and cats were put here to be our friends, but none of them have souls.
Screw that. Animals have all the feelings and stuff we do. They're lovely creatures, the only difference is that they're more open-minded than humans and they're not destroying the planet.
Also I hear more about animal ghosts than human ghosts. I definitely believe that they have souls.

And as for the contradictions in the bible, every page has a brand new contradiction that everyone ignores.
Some people think you're not supposed to take the bible literally..well then how are you supposed to take it? If you're supposed to ignore the shit that's written on every page, then why read it or follow it at all?

Like I said, I try to be open-minded with it, but when people are pushing me to follow it, then all I want to do is scream at them and show them how bullshit the whole thing is.

Silly people..

Yes, maybe those two religions are quite different, but they're similar enough that you would think that it wouldn't be such a big deal.

Just because Christianity broke off of Catholicism does not make them similar enough to intermix. There was a reason they broke off. Catholics hold the virgin Mary VERY high up and Christians think this is a huge no no and blasphemy. Despite what people think the two religions are actually very different.

And then this also goes with my father. He's not crazy like that (I hardly even got closely into detail about how crazy her dad is..), but he told me that he wanted to burn all of my books about Wicca and stuff that didn't follow his religion.
In fact, I was a vegetarian for a year and every time I saw him, he would tell me how animals were put onto this planet for the purpose of serving us. Animals are food and dogs and cats were put here to be our friends, but none of them have souls.
Screw that. Animals have all the feelings and stuff we do. They're lovely creatures, the only difference is that they're more open-minded than humans and they're not destroying the planet.
Also I hear more about animal ghosts than human ghosts. I definitely believe that they have souls.

feelings =/= souls. Generally speaking. While no doubt any human on earth would say other humans and most would even include animals as having feelings, not nearly as many would say humans and/or animals have souls. Typically one does not define the other.

Being open-minded would mean that they can think clearly enough to make a decision. However animals do not make decisions based on how the world will react that we know of. Dogs will do their business wherever is convenient for them, not only in certain places so it doesn't poison other animals. I know that sounds silly but think about it. When do animals ever have to make a choice that is going to effect the world as globally as humans do?

Ghosts are not provable really so it's hard to say they really exist outside of one's own mind. Hallucinations, illusions and one-time odd events(such as a horse galloping by) make up most of what have been claimed as supernatural events. While I don't deny that there are such things, it's not provable so it shouldn't be counted against someone if they don't believe in it.

Some of your other statements were also very subjective to opinion rather than being a sturdy fact.

I never said that I was right about everything, I was just stating my opinions on these things. I thought that's what this was all about.

I know that they're not completely similar, like I said. They're quite different. :P
I just think it's strange that they follow almost the same values..almost, but not the same, as you tend to get what I'm saying mixed up.
I know a lot of Christian people who hate on Catholics because they think they're weird and all that.. I think that's very strange.

Also I do know that feelings don't equal souls and all that blahblahblah.

There is more evidence that we came from animals to begin with, so to say that they don't have souls and then suddenly at the latest evolution or whatever suddenly obtained a soul is quite stupid. But then again, who really knows how anything became?

When I meant open-minded creatures, I meant that just because someone is ugly and pimply and smelly doesn't mean that an animal will dislike them just because they look funny. A person can befriend any animal and they don't really care about anything except how you treat them mostly.

I just think it's strange that they follow almost the same values..almost, but not the same, as you tend to get what I'm saying mixed up.
I know a lot of Christian people who hate on Catholics because they think they're weird and all that.. I think that's very strange.

And that's where I'm stopping you. The religions do not follow almost the same values. They share some larger ones such as murder being wrong, homosexuality and abstinence are also ranked up there. They use the Bible, through their interpretation of the Bible they believe in a God.

However the ritualistic society of the Catholics very much differs from Christianity. While denominations of Christianity vary on ritualistic behavior, there is significantly less of it. There are also some core beliefs that are violated. Christians do not believe you have to confess your sins to anyone and that you, by praying, speak directly to God. Meanwhile Catholics are taught to confess their faith to priests and through them they are forgiven. Another major difference are the saints. Catholics pray to saints because they believe the saints will be more influential with God, while Christianity holds all humans, including saints and the virgin Mary, on and equal ground whether dead or alive.

Many Christians and Catholics would be offended by saying that the two religions are almost the same when they're not. I myself am taken back by your lack of knowledge on such matters when you've entered the debate forum.

Also, Christians don't hate people because they think they're weird. They dislike them because they believe Catholics have cheated a lot of people out of salvation and misled them for centuries.

I never said that I was right about everything, I was just stating my opinions on these things. I thought that's what this was all about.

Debate forum. Means you are supposed to state your opinion with evidence of why you are right. It goes back and forth until all arguments have really been rung out and there is no longer anything to debate. If you want to state your opinion and not expect criticism or comeback's then go back to the discussion forum.

Also I do know that feelings don't equal souls and all that blahblahblah.

Animals are food and dogs and cats were put here to be our friends, but none of them have souls.
Screw that. Animals have all the feelings and stuff we do.

Then why, in your previous statement, did you equate souls and feelings if you know they are not equal? and the blah's are incredibly mature.

There is more evidence that we came from animals to begin with, so to say that they don't have souls and then suddenly at the latest evolution or whatever suddenly obtained a soul is quite stupid. But then again, who really knows how anything became?

My point above is that many people don't even think humans have souls, muchless animals.

Also, evolution is still theoretical at best. There is little evidence to show that jumping species is even possible. We as humans share more genes with Chickens than we do with any Monkey.

When I meant open-minded creatures, I meant that just because someone is ugly and pimply and smelly doesn't mean that an animal will dislike them just because they look funny. A person can befriend any animal and they don't really care about anything except how you treat them mostly.

That's not open-minded, that's simple-minded. They like you based on the way you treat them. There are no other factors involved, not because they don't care, because it's simply the only thing their minds can really process. And we do know that animals are not nearly as advanced as humans because of their limited language and such. Open-Mindedness would include understanding of one thing and still being able to listen and understand a totally different point of view.

The idea is to debate. Not state your opinion and expect everyone to accept it. =) Welcome to the debate forum.

Ugh, I can't believe I have to repeat this.

Catholicism is Christianity.

Christianity isn't always Catholicism, but Catholicism is always Christianity.

Typically, if you are Christian but not Catholic, you are Protestant. Protestants include Methodists, Evangelicals, Baptists, Quakers, Lutherans, and a slew of other denominations. The only non-Protestant denominations of Christianity are Anglican and the two Catholic sects (Roman and Eastern Orthodox).

Ugh, I can't believe I have to repeat this.

Catholicism is Christianity.

Christianity isn't always Catholicism, but Catholicism is always Christianity.

Typically, if you are Christian but not Catholic, you are Protestant. Protestants include Methodists, Evangelicals, Baptists, Quakers, Lutherans, and a slew of other denominations. The only non-Protestant denominations of Christianity are Anglican and the two Catholic sects (Roman and Eastern Orthodox).

Definition inconsistency. Yes, Christianity does include protestants and Catholics however typically protestants refer to themselves as Christians and Catholics refer to themselves as Catholics. I was going for the definition of popularity, not accuracy.

But being Catholic doesn't make you not Christian. When you spout off stuff like "As a catholic, xyz, but as a christian, abc" it makes zero sense.

For example,

Many Christians and Catholics would be offended by saying that the two religions are almost the same when they're not

It makes no sense because Catholics ARE Christians. When you're talking about the difference between Catholics and Protestants, you need to use the correct terminology, because there are no "differences" between Catholics and Christians.

It's like if Catholics were red apples and Protestants were green apples and Anglicans were yellow apples (apples being Christianity in general). You wouldn't say "Green apples and apples are different" because the context makes no sense. They're all apples in the end, and the only differences are on the surface. The core is the same: salvation through Christ.

Yeah, I may not be a religious-history expert, but (if I remember correctly from my historical anthropology class) Catholicism and Christianity are two of the many branches of Judaism. For once, I don't plan on bein in the middle of something, like what you two have going on, I'm just throwing that out there. ^^;

Originally Posted by demoscout

Yeah, I may not be a religious-history expert, but (if I remember correctly from my historical anthropology class) Catholicism and Christianity are two of the many branches of Judaism. For once, I don't plan on bein in the middle of something, like what you two have going on, I'm just throwing that out there. ^^;

Again, that's why terminology is important. Catholicism is a branch of Christianity; Christianity is a branch of the general "Abrahamic religions" (the other two being Judaism and Islam).

To say Catholics are a denomination of Judaism is outright false, because that would make all Catholics also Jews (which would offend both Catholics and Jews as this is not even close to true).

Ok you're right, then let me rephrase.
Before all the religions which worship God and Jesus Christ, there was Judaism. It came first. When I say that Catholicism is a "branch" I simply mean in a flowchart kind of way. You're also right, Catholics are a form of Christian in a sense. Catholics are just one of the many branch-offs with their own core values which set them a part from other Christian faiths. Judaism is a whole other ball game in itself as well.

Edit: That's all I have to say on this particular argument. I just wanted to share what little info that I knew. I'm not prepared to argue every detail of these things because, well...I don't know them. Good luck Hayzel. xD

Yes, I see what you meant.

But, I think you'll enjoy this:

Think of it like a movie. The Torah is the first one, and the New Testament is the sequel. Then the Koran comes out, and it retcons the last one like it never happened. There's still Jesus, but he's not the main character anymore, and the messiah hasn't shown up yet.

Jews like the first movie but ignored the sequels. Christians think you need to watch the first two, but the third movie doesn't count. Muslims think the third one was the best.

Mormons like the second one so much that they started writing fan-fiction that doesn't fit with any of the series canon.

Their common root is what makes them Abrahamic--they all believe in the same god (Abraham) and that's about it.

But being Catholic doesn't make you not Christian. When you spout off stuff like "As a catholic, xyz, but as a christian, abc" it makes zero sense.

If you take what I said into consideration earlier it would make more sense. I used the Christian and protestant terms interchangably because of the popular definition.

It makes no sense because Catholics ARE Christians. When you're talking about the difference between Catholics and Protestants, you need to use the correct terminology, because there are no "differences" between Catholics and Christians.

It's like if Catholics were red apples and Protestants were green apples and Anglicans were yellow apples (apples being Christianity in general). You wouldn't say "Green apples and apples are different" because the context makes no sense. They're all apples in the end, and the only differences are on the surface. The core is the same: salvation through Christ.

If you look at everything I said and replaced Christian with Protestant, it makes perfect sense. Again, Christian is the popular definition.

And no, it's not like your apples example. Catholics believe there are other ways to get to heaven, such as praying people to heaven. Protestants as a whole are very against this. It's hard to believe you actually know what you're talking about when you make mistakes like that. You're so hung up that I used the wrong word for a legitimate point that you're missing the big picture.

Oh, so you can't get saved through Christ if you're a Catholic? You're missing the point.

If you don't believe that Christ is the son of God and that you can achieve salvation through Him (I'm not saying only through Him), then you are not a Christian, period. This is why not all Unitarians are Christians.

All the other differences and nuances (such as purgatory, sainthood, clergy, predestination, baptism, whether or not Jesus had a "second coming" in the Americas, etc. etc.) are where the denominations come from.

Oh, so you can't get saved through Christ if you're a Catholic? You're missing the point.

No you are missing the point. Majority of protestants think Christ is the only way to heaven.

Catholics do not. That is the difference.

If you don't believe that Christ is the son of God and that you can achieve salvation through Him (I'm not saying only through Him), then you are not a Christian, period. This is why not all Unitarians are Christians.

Agreed, however Protestants interpret a certain verse where Jesus says

I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can enter the Kingdom of God except through me.

to mean that there is only one way to heaven. Catholics do not believe there is only one way, and therefore Protestants believe Catholics are leading people astray. It's a pretty big difference in theology.

All the other differences and nuances (such as purgatory, sainthood, clergy, predestination, baptism, whether or not Jesus had a "second coming" in the Americas, etc. etc.) are where the denominations come from.

Catholicism and Protestant are not 'denominations' of Christianity, they are branches because they are very different.

Catholics also believe that the Pope is pretty much an equal to Jesus Christ, who according to Protestants is a part of the trinity and there for a part of God. Catholics also pray to saints and the virgin Mary while Protestants see this as idolatry.

These differences are not minor and why Protestant Christianity is often considered a different religion that Catholicism.