Originally Posted by Kris

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience about your daughter lying and cheating.

Is your daughter's faults reason to make the poor serfs to the government? To take away their very rights and dehumanize them? Your daughter cheated the system; SHE deserves to be punished, not the entire community that needs welfare to be able to buy their children school supplies or to prevent themselves from being homeless.


If you want to dehumanize those on welfare to the point where forced labor is okay, then how do you think they're going to better themselves? If you force the poor to work for the government with nothing but the measly welfare checks to tide them over, how do you expect them to get off of welfare? If you force the poor to live in ghettos (as though this was Nazi Germany that we are living in), then how do you expect the children to ever see new things and branch out beyond these ghettos?

Your daughter is doing a very evil, corrupt thing. Perhaps that is reason to punish her, to make HER life harder, but it is no reason to spite everyone on welfare, and it is no reason to make the poor's lives poorer.

Her daughter isn't the only one out there abusing the system. I've known more than a few who have done the same. I'm willing to bet we aren't the only two who have personal knowledge of someone (or more than one) cheating the system. The most common way many women cheat the system is to say they don't have any other income or their husband isn't living with them or working, when in fact they have a boyfriend living with them, giving them money, paying half their bills, or a husband who is in fact still with them and working.

I've been poor as a child, and been shuffled around as well. I've had family members who have been on the system as well, so I know how it works.

Well now, I am not exactly from America, but from Denmark, and we have had a welfare system with high taxes and public help centers for a long while now.
And well... even though it has it littles faults and stuff that could be improved, all in all, I'd say it works just as it should.
One thing I am specifically grateful about is our universal healt insurance, without it, I'd been dead by the age of 6...

Hard working americans aren't always wealthy.
The Welfare State tries to promote equality and social mobility...it's good :)
I like Welfare, as I live in a Welfare State-The Uk.
And I'm annoyed at certain people (ie Sarah Palin) for telling everyone about death panels and such...they DON'T EXIST.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

Her daughter isn't the only one out there abusing the system. I've known more than a few who have done the same. I'm willing to bet we aren't the only two who have personal knowledge of someone (or more than one) cheating the system. The most common way many women cheat the system is to say they don't have any other income or their husband isn't living with them or working, when in fact they have a boyfriend living with them, giving them money, paying half their bills, or a husband who is in fact still with them and working.

I've been poor as a child, and been shuffled around as well. I've had family members who have been on the system as well, so I know how it works.

So, a few abuse it, and therefore the whole of the poor in our nation should be treated like serfs?

Logic: where'd it go?

Where do you get the idea that we all want to treat them like serfs. I guess if it was left up to you someone on welfare should get a new car, a brick home paid for and all the clothes and groceries they want so that they can feel equal. Equal get a job just like I do. No excuses. If children are the only reason you dont work you need to get off your butt and get a job and pay daycare and rent and insurance and all that just like the rest of us then they can feel equal. Otherwise dont complain. Get this straight I say help those who need it but get those lazy sob's off their baby factory butts and put them to work.

Originally Posted by Kris

So, a few abuse it, and therefore the whole of the poor in our nation should be treated like serfs?

Logic: where'd it go?

It's far from a few who abuse it though. Serfs? You seem to like that word. All I can say is if that's what you feel like, and you don't like it, then stop with the excuses and DO something about it. There are a hell of a lot of people who are but a few steps from being penniless and living on the streets by the fault of mere fate and luck alone, especially with the economy the way it is right now. I could be next myself. I can assure you I wouldn't stay that way for forever though. IF it so happened that I was never able to recover from such a fall, I wouldn't blame the world for my problems. I'd be thankful for the help I receive and not have my hand out for more than absolutely necessary to live. Living in a shack on rice and beans isn't much of a life, but it's better than living on the streets, begging for food, and sadly, there are people who are in that boat as well.

What most here are saying is that welfare is a good thing for those who really need it. "We" have no problem with it in that respect. "We" believe it should be a temporary solution so that a person is able to begin getting back on their feet after having been dealt some harsh blows that brought them to the point that they needed the aid they receive. Having to live in welfare housing, and receiving money and food stamps for "most of your life" is NOT temporary. My biggest problem with the system is when someone REALLY needs help and can't get it. Especially when it's because they tell the truth-when there are so many who are lying just to get aid.

Originally Posted by wandering echo

Where do you get the idea that we all want to treat them like serfs. I guess if it was left up to you someone on welfare should get a new car, a brick home paid for and all the clothes and groceries they want so that they can feel equal. Equal get a job just like I do. No excuses. If children are the only reason you dont work you need to get off your butt and get a job and pay daycare and rent and insurance and all that just like the rest of us then they can feel equal. Otherwise dont complain. Get this straight I say help those who need it but get those lazy sob's off their baby factory butts and put them to work.

Do you know what a serf is, darling? It was someone in medieval Europe who was forced to work because they were given a job and, sometimes, food by a landlord. What do you want to happen to the poor?
You want to force them to work because they're given poor houses and sometimes they're given foodstamps. Should they be working or attempting to do so? Yeah, they should. Should they be forced to work small, monotonous jobs for the government while also being told that they're good for nothing and need to find work? No, they should not.

Now, you need to learn how to debate. Strawmen are not the way to do so. I never said any of things which you shove in my mouth, and I will refuse to debate with someone who has to resort to such petty ways to get a point across.

Originally Posted by Infinitys Echo

It's far from a few who abuse it though. Serfs? You seem to like that word. All I can say is if that's what you feel like, and you don't like it, then stop with the excuses and DO something about it. There are a hell of a lot of people who are but a few steps from being penniless and living on the streets by the fault of mere fate and luck alone, especially with the economy the way it is right now. I could be next myself. I can assure you I wouldn't stay that way for forever though. IF it so happened that I was never able to recover from such a fall, I wouldn't blame the world for my problems. I'd be thankful for the help I receive and not have my hand out for more than absolutely necessary to live. Living in a shack on rice and beans isn't much of a life, but it's better than living on the streets, begging for food, and sadly, there are people who are in that boat as well.

What most here are saying is that welfare is a good thing for those who really need it. "We" have no problem with it in that respect. "We" believe it should be a temporary solution so that a person is able to begin getting back on their feet after having been dealt some harsh blows that brought them to the point that they needed the aid they receive. Having to live in welfare housing, and receiving money and food stamps for "most of your life" is NOT temporary. My biggest problem with the system is when someone REALLY needs help and can't get it. Especially when it's because they tell the truth-when there are so many who are lying just to get aid.

Oh yes, the entire lot of welfare users are dirty, horrible people who do nothing but cheat the system, right? You say most of the people on welfare are corrupt like you, you best come up with some sources.

I never said it's the fault the fault of the government or any for someone's misfortune. :|

@Kris: Serfs were forced. With welfare you choose to get into it or not. And like most said it already, while it does help some people, it is also abused by some people because it's easy depending on where you live and how you do it.

Also, not everyone is taking Philosophy. Care to explain what a Strawmen falacy is?

My thoughts is that it should be modified so the government know who really are getting that money. Someone said they just needed to report they didn't have a husband living with them and receive money to waste on their boyfriend. This should be policed, instead of throwing seeds to soil and sand indiscriminately. They could give a list of possible jobs while they're giving it out too. I know if people want a job they'll do everything in their power to get one, but sometimes they don't know how to look.

I could suggest directly paying rent and selective food stamps to make sure they're not being used for other unnecessary things, but I'm afraid some people could think that's too much invading of privacy.

I was referring to the work that they were made to do, rather than their state of being.

A straw-man fallacy is when you build a false representation of your opponent's argument. Normally you exaggerate their points to make them sound ridiculous.

I don't understand why a requirement of welfare should be found in marital status. That seems really nonsensical. However, I do agree that welfare should be more heavily policed against people that do misuse it. Where we disagree is in your want to make those who are suffering suffer more.

Kris how is having someone work for what they get being a serf. Serfs were indentured workers that did not get any money. They farmed the land for what they had and sold part of the crop and gave the rest to the landowner to pay for the land and housing. Do you know what a serf is???? Everyone has their own point of view. From what Ive seen Kris you are the only one against all the rest that has an attitude that people on welfare shouldnt have to work or earn what they get but should be able to live as long as they like on welfare and the taxpayers expense. Oh and we should make them feel proud to do it. Get real. Me thinks you protest too much.

Originally Posted by midnitemyst

Kris how is having someone work for what they get being a serf. Serfs were indentured workers that did not get any money. They farmed the land for what they had and sold part of the crop and gave the rest to the landowner to pay for the land and housing. Do you know what a serf is???? Everyone has their own point of view. From what Ive seen Kris you are the only one against all the rest that has an attitude that people on welfare shouldnt have to work or earn what they get but should be able to live as long as they like on welfare and the taxpayers expense. Oh and we should make them feel proud to do it. Get real. Me thinks you protest too much.

No, I compared them to serfs because someone suggest anyone who is on welfare should be forced to work by the government for nothing but the welfare they get while simultaneously getting themselves out of poverty, and that all people on welfare should be cooped up in a ghetto and that it shouldn't be made "easy", as though it was ever easy in the first place.

Next time, before you attack me, before you attempt to debate with false logic and strawmen, know what my comment was directed towards.

:roll:

Kris I am sorry if you feel you were attacked. Your logic is just as false and your straw men are more full of holes than the other people I have seen on this thread. You seem to think that being on welfare is a divine right and something to have pride in. I personally dont think so. I think the person that works an honest days work and struggles is more comendable than someone who does nothing for what they get. There is nothing wrong with being poor. People struggle all the time. And a lot of deserving people dont get the help they need. Why do you think we have so many homeless in America.

You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. I am content to shake on it and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Kris

Do you know what a serf is, darling?



Oh yes, the entire lot of welfare users are dirty, horrible people who do nothing but cheat the system, right? You say most of the people on welfare are corrupt like you, you best come up with some sources.

I never said it's the fault the fault of the government or any for someone's misfortune. :|

As to the first sentence I quoted you on, don't tell others how to debate you when YOU are the one being condescending. Name calling is only going to make you look foolish and childish. And don't try to say that that "darling" up there was meant in a nice way. We ALL know it wasn't.

Next: Now you're calling ME names. I should have seen it coming. I'm corrupt? How so? I'm not sitting on welfare getting food stamps. As an adult, I NEVER have. There have been times when I have worked two, and yes even THREE, jobs at ONE TIME. Don't put words into my mouth. I want to see proof that I have said ALL welfare users are bad and cheat the system. If you can't prove it then I suggest you drop it. Many on here don't agree with you, but they are NOT sinking to your depths and name calling and being nasty to you about it.

No, you didn't say it was anyone's fault, however you act like it's something that's owed to you. It's not.

Originally Posted by Kris

I don't understand why a requirement of welfare should be found in marital status. That seems really nonsensical. However, I do agree that welfare should be more heavily policed against people that do misuse it. Where we disagree is in your want to make those who are suffering suffer more.

I don't think being married or not is actually a requirement. I think it's based moreso on if the person is married and the spouse is working, they may not qualify for benefits, but if that working spouse isn't living with them, that income isn't included. More of an instance of no income, more qualified. Something along those lines.

As to wanting to make those who are suffering, suffer more? Not so. What you make it sound like is that people on welfare should be able to live in homes and receive benefits , WITHOUT WORKING, just the same as those who ARE working. You speak of how it feels to be poor. Have you ever stopped to think how it makes those who are working their buns off, sometimes at more than one job, feel to see some people sit on their buns not doing anything, yet still have a place to stay and food to eat. It pisses people off. Some of us here KNOW what the other side is like because we've been there, either as children or adults, so we "feel" for you and try to understand. You, however, refuse to see anything but your side, and those who don't have sympathy for every single sob story, you begin name calling, condescension, and patronizing.

Originally Posted by Kris

No, I compared them to serfs because someone suggest anyone who is on welfare should be forced to work by the government for nothing but the welfare they get while simultaneously getting themselves out of poverty, and that all people on welfare should be cooped up in a ghetto and that it shouldn't be made "easy", as though it was ever easy in the first place.

Next time, before you attack me, before you attempt to debate with false logic and strawmen, know what my comment was directed towards.

:roll:

Let's see. Work=money. If someone gives you money, you should either pay it back or work it off. Hmmm. OK, let's not force them to work then, let's make them pay back every single dime they got. I wonder how they're going to do that if they don't work?

Realistically though, the way it would work is that you must work, either from home or outside the home. The money received from working, you would keep. While your welfare benefits MIGHT decrease some due to more income in the home, you ARE doing something in return for the money and benefits you are receiving. You are still gaining from that work in more ways than one. You are helping to "earn" your way, as well as it boosting your own self esteem and self worth. You are gaining work experience as well, which will help to get a better job.

Oh, and I just want to mention that you doing the nastiness again with the eyeroll. Your points are much better taken when you aren't doing this type of thing. Debates can become very emotional, but when one continues to push, sooner or later someone else is going to push back. Like I am beginning to do. And unfortunately that just screws up the thread for everyone. How about let's not go there?

I was going to say it is starting to sound like a beat up on Kris thread, this is unfair to her and I certainly didnt mean for it to start to get out of hand. I respect her views. She sees things her way and I see things mine. We need to again agree to disagree and be done with it. I certainly dont want hard feelings due to having different opinions. Im finished here folks.

Originally Posted by wandering echo

I was going to say it is starting to sound like a beat up on Kris thread, this is unfair to her and I certainly didnt mean for it to start to get out of hand. I respect her views. She sees things her way and I see things mine. We need to again agree to disagree and be done with it. I certainly dont want hard feelings due to having different opinions. Im finished here folks.

What you say is true, but Kris was doing doing her fair share of it. Her opinions would be better received without name-calling and nastiness. It IS possible to have the one dissenting opinion in the bunch and defend your position without going to such lengths, and even change some minds while your doing it. Also, as long as you're debating the subject and not the person, there aren't any hard feelings to be had. It's when it gets personal that hard feelings come about. Sarcastically calling people "darling" and accusing someone of being corrupt with no prove is not the way to go about it. Someone was bound to say something about it. This time is just happened to be me.

I think she has at this point moved on anyway. But it is a shame that she took it so personal. I feel very strongly that alot of people arent getting help due to too many that wont help themselves are getting it which makes it harder for people in needy circumstances to be able to get it.

Let's just remember that the Debate forum is meant to be a friendly center for discussion - You're not fighting each other, just talking about different issues. :yes:

Even if you disagree with the other users, there are ways of getting your points across without turning it into a personal conflict. We all just have to be careful about how our posts are worded.

You are right and sometimes people feel strongly to one view. Debate is the back and forth of two different views or opinions. True it should be friendly but then again not every one is the same or reacts the same. I just thing the discussion got a little out of hand and became more than just a friendly debate and I feel I was probably just as much at fault. Shame on me.

Originally Posted by wandering echo

You are right and sometimes people feel strongly to one view. Debate is the back and forth of two different views or opinions. True it should be friendly but then again not every one is the same or reacts the same. I just thing the discussion got a little out of hand and became more than just a friendly debate and I feel I was probably just as much at fault. Shame on me.

I stand by my statement. You didn't cause anything. She took it too personally and began crossing the line. And dangit, ruined the debate :)!

When I was 18 I moved out on my own due to circumstances with my mom and her boyfriend. I went to the welfare office and found out how it works. I'm not actually on welfare, but i am soon going to be on the free medical program they have and possibly food stamps. I have also been working 2 jobs since I turned 18 and I am 19 now.
So anyways, here's how the system works:
To qualify for medical you have to be younger than 21 and not living with your parents (or retired and older than 65).

To qualify for food stamps, you have to be 18. the amount of food stamps you get is based on your monthly income. In order to qualify for food stamps at all you have to work a certain amount of hours per week. For those of you who don't know, food stamps comes in a form of an EBT card and there are certain things you cannot buy with it, such as alchohol, tobacco, toys, etc. You also cannot use it to buy things like Mc Donald's.

General assistance is when you actually get government checks. You have to pay this money back.