Thread Tools

Claudia
(っ◕‿◕)&...
113.80
Claudia is offline
 
#1
Old 08-12-2009, 10:26 PM

As some may know, Islamics have some sexist beliefs concerning having a certain gender.
Guess which one it is?.. The end result is their belief requires increased covering up and modesty for a certain gender.

Now for the tricky part, their covering up presents safety issues in certain situations.
Is this discrimination?...OR should they be forced to dress down for the occasion?.
As you might have read in the news, a person with these beliefs was turned away from a public swimming pool for their Islamic style bathing suit which presented a potential safety hazard.
They are now filing for religious discrimination.

There are other risks involved.
Someone wearing a burka is hiding their face, therefore it presents a security risk in certain instances.
How does one identify a person wearing a burka?. How does a burka wearing person get a drivers license?.
There has been another case involving this issue.

Someone wearing a burka could hide items under the burka. They could use the burka for theft and shoplifting. A burka wearing person could be a suicide bomber. They could just be hiding their idenity to get away with a crime and flee.
This too has happened.

Some even choose to cover up, which IHO I am generally OK with tolerating, as long as they don't expect others to cover up . . I absolutely hate these garments and what they represent, however I do not think I can take away someones' right to wear them if that's what they wish. If someone chooses to be submissive , wants to be dominated, then that's their choice.
I do feel when there's security and safety issues at stake, they should be required to dress down appropriately to the occasion. Their modestly beliefs are not more important in my mind then these other issues.

Last edited by Claudia; 08-12-2009 at 10:55 PM..

Bartuc
Sky Pirate
195944.43
Bartuc is offline
 
#2
Old 08-12-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia View Post
As some may know, Islamics have some sexist beliefs concerning having a certain gender.
Guess which one it is?.. The end result is their belief requires increased covering up and modesty for a certain gender.
Some even choose to cover up, which IHO I am generally OK with as long as they don't expect others to cover if they don't want to.

Now for the tricky part, their covering up presents safety issues in certain situations.
Is this discrimination?...OR should they be forced to dress down for the occasion?.
As you might have read in the news, a person with these beliefs was turned away from a public swimming pool for their Islamic style bathing suit which presented a potential safety hazard.
They are now filing for religious discrimination.
First off. I would like to see an image of this Islamic style bathing suit in which this debate is about in order to give a full on rebuttal to this argument.

You are bringing up a topic based on a cultures beliefs which have been established for thousands of years. The cultural beliefs go more in depth than this. However, I wouldn't expect anyone to know this as the news definitely portrays every aspect in which these people believe when it comes to a dress standard. :roll:

What are the safety issues in which you are talking about? I am failing to see anything that violates the safety of a person or people.

They should not be forced to dress down. Just as any other person has the right to their religious beliefs as the next person. Do I think it is wrong this person is filing a lawsuit against this party for religious discrimination? Hell no I do not. Those people are in their complete right. There is not a single corporation, business, or person that should be able to dictate what someone wears. It isn't a health violation as these people may have a designated 'bathing suit' just like any other person has.

Blazestorm
Burn, baby, BUUUURRRRRN....
152.35
Blazestorm is offline
 
#3
Old 08-12-2009, 10:41 PM

I can't even imagine what an Islamic swimming suit looks like, but regardless of the specific religion in question, personal religious beliefs should NOT endanger other people. However, the definition of "danger" (or "endanger") can be subjective for certain situations. Perhaps this was one of them. Without more information on the details, it's hard to say whether this is a valid law suit or another frivolous one...

*goes to look up Islamic swimwear*

...edit: it's a burqini! LINK

Claudia
(っ◕‿◕)&...
113.80
Claudia is offline
 
#4
Old 08-12-2009, 10:59 PM

Yes, that's it. Not sure what all the risks are in a public swimming pool besides being unhygenic
...Just going by what I read in the article. I suppose if there risks are indeed invalid, then the "burkini" should be allowed.

Last edited by Claudia; 08-12-2009 at 11:06 PM..

juniper_silver
\ (•◡•) /
396.93
juniper_silver is offline
 
#5
Old 08-12-2009, 11:11 PM

I have some Islamic friends, and they aren't the least bit unhappy about the dress code they're given.

I'm not sure about this specific bathing suit, I guess it depends on the reasons given for it being a safety hazard. It doesn't look unsafe to me.

Bartuc
Sky Pirate
195944.43
Bartuc is offline
 
#6
Old 08-12-2009, 11:36 PM

It doesn't look like it has a health hazard. I mean its a swim suit. Just like any other swim suit it is probably worn to go swimming in. Not everyday shopping.

The Tallest Building Ever
ʘ‿ʘ
910.85
Send a message via MSN to The Tallest Building Ever
The Tallest Building Ever is offline
 
#7
Old 08-12-2009, 11:47 PM

I really don't want to start a huge debate over all of this but I honestly feel like your post is rather ignorant.
I do not practice Islam, but I can tell you right now that Islam is not a sexist religion by any means.

A few countries that are considered Islam may oppress women, but Islam doesn't oppress women.
Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings.

Islamic women do it because they want to.
And Muslim women DO dress how they want.
They WANT to wear long skirts or pants.
They WANT to wear a headscarf.
They DONT WANT to wear make up.

I once heard a women who practiced islam say this to a christian who was provoking her:

Quote:
"Muslim women are not slaves to men for dressing the way that they do. What makes you think that American women aren't slaves to men? Wearing make up, dressing in ridiculously revealing clothing, acting immoral, shaking their ass on the dance floor and acting over-sexed just to get a man's attention. Who do you think is really the slave here? Do you ever see a Muslim woman complain about the clothes she wears? No! But American women complain all the time about their appearance: 'what if I'm not pretty enough, what if I don't wear the right thing, do you think I'm wearing enough make up, maybe if I buy this expensive dress then he'll pay a complement to me, I'm not wearing enough lipstick so I need to put more on..."
Sorry, but that argument was MUCH stronger than any other argument the girl attacked her with brought up.


And exactly what safety issues are you talking about? I've NEVER felt my safety being compromised by the fact that somebody wants to dress with a headress and a long shirt/dress.

Last edited by The Tallest Building Ever; 08-12-2009 at 11:51 PM..

Claudia
(っ◕‿◕)&...
113.80
Claudia is offline
 
#8
Old 08-12-2009, 11:52 PM

If one gender is supposed to cover up completely and the other is not, I consider that sexist.
When everyone is expected to cover up and be modest, then I'd drop the sexist comment.

The Tallest Building Ever
ʘ‿ʘ
910.85
Send a message via MSN to The Tallest Building Ever
The Tallest Building Ever is offline
 
#9
Old 08-12-2009, 11:56 PM

From Here:

Quote:
#2. Our dress should provide adornment. It should provide for decent appearance. Our appearance should not be an eyesore for decent human beings. For men, this extends the coverage requirements to include most of the body. For women, the essential requirement is that their dress should identify them as respectable ladies who would be honored not harassed. Additionally, hijab rules aim at protecting them from the gaze of other men.
Sorry.
Men have a dress code too.

Claudia
(っ◕‿◕)&...
113.80
Claudia is offline
 
#10
Old 08-13-2009, 12:03 AM

Not in the pictures I've seen. Usually what I see is Islamic men dressed more causally next to burkas and hijabs.
PS: Got a picture of an Islamic man wearing an Islamic bathing suit covering him all up for us?.
Since men have the "same" non sexist dress code, it shouldn't be too hard to find huh?.

The Tallest Building Ever
ʘ‿ʘ
910.85
Send a message via MSN to The Tallest Building Ever
The Tallest Building Ever is offline
 
#11
Old 08-13-2009, 12:12 AM

Not sexist.

I'm not going to bother trying to sway you.

Stormlick
⊙ω⊙
430.02
Stormlick is offline
 
#12
Old 08-13-2009, 07:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia View Post
Not in the pictures I've seen. Usually what I see is Islamic men dressed more causally next to burkas and hijabs.
PS: Got a picture of an Islamic man wearing an Islamic bathing suit covering him all up for us?.
Since men have the "same" non sexist dress code, it shouldn't be too hard to find huh?.
Not in the pictures you've seen? O.o lol.

Honestly, it is a choice. Their culture is different from ours, but it is definitely a choice on the part of the female. (It might not be so in every single Muslim community, but it should and ought to be according to the Qu'ran, and most Imams.) If only I had the title of the ethnography I read about a year ago where an anthropologist went in depth into Muslim women and their choice of clothing. It was an extremely interesting read.

They are proud of their traditional clothing, and described much the same feeling that I personally have when wearing my own country's National garb. If I could wear those darn heavy, big skirted dresses every day, I would. (But they're too expensive.) I admire Muslim women and their ability to hang onto tradition, despite an increasingly a westernized world.

And I cannot agree with your argument of 'safety hazards'. Baggy clothing? Big skirts? It seems to me that you're actually openly stigmatizing one group because they are somehow generally viewed as suspicious. Which is ludicrous, and quite truthfully, incredibly judgmental. As a woman who's put on a lot of weight lately, I'm very relieved that we're not all having to squeeze into skin-tight garments every day, just to avoid 'posing risks' to society, lol.

People can hide weapons everywhere. Just because some sick, twisted, extremist, fundamentalist jack-asses have exploited Muslim women's traditional garb, does not mean it ought to be banned. That is, I would argue, a dangerous thought.

Last edited by Stormlick; 08-13-2009 at 08:00 AM..

nidhogg13
(-.-)zzZ
33.50
nidhogg13 is offline
 
#13
Old 08-13-2009, 08:11 AM

Personally, yes. I do think it's sexist. It's their choice to follow the rules, yes, and I respect that, but I don't understand that, because there is something wrong with the rules. Not all Islamic people are bad. In fact, I've had several good friends who were. However, guess what: they weren't strict with following "the rules" because they knew some of them were wrong.

Women are required to wear berkas. I'm not sure of the men's dress code, but I do know that all the time, I see a women in a full berka walking with her husband in shorts and a t-shirt. This is wrong for many reasons, the first being the women's safety and comfort. A berka has to be black, and being a dark full garment, I can't even imaginge how uncomfortably hot that woman must be. True, she's safe from sunburn and other such threats, but what about heat stroke?
The other reason why it's wrong is because of it's REASON. The purpose, more or less, is to remove a man's responsibility. If a woman is raped, and she wasn't wearing a berka, "It's not the man's fault, it's the woman's fault for provoking him."

reddeath26
*^_^*
7776.88
Send a message via MSN to reddeath26
reddeath26 is offline
 
#14
Old 08-13-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia View Post
If one gender is supposed to cover up completely and the other is not, I consider that sexist.
When everyone is expected to cover up and be modest, then I'd drop the sexist comment.
Although the problem with your view is that you are making the assumption that the desire to wear less clothing is a universal human trait. When it has already been demonstrated in this thread by the "The Tallest Building Ever" that not all cultures share this view. Drawing from this I would argue that you, yourself are guilty of infringing on their rights. You are doing so by trying to force cultural norms and values on them which are quite irrelevant.

Claudia
(っ◕‿◕)&...
113.80
Claudia is offline
 
#15
Old 08-13-2009, 11:13 AM

Stormlick.
I said it was sexist. Whether or not their culture is different does that change this fact.
However they feel about the sexism doesn't change that it's there.
Nobody is probably going to share a picture to disprove this fact, because I'm guessing none exists.
The truth is the men are often dressed conventionally while the women are expected to wear the burkas due to their gender. There is no other reason given for wearing them then being a certain gender.
I never said anything about taking away their choice unless in situations where their choice interferes with safety.

What if we forced all people of Chinese ethnicity to cover up more then other races?. Because Chinese are "frail" and need protection ( not saying they are,just an example). Even if some individual Chinese choose to dress like this it would still be racist because the expectations would be they dress like this and others are not expected to.

nidhogg13, I think you've understand the concept more. Just because it's a choice doesn't mean it's not sexist.
From what I've read they are very uncomfortable. Like wearing a tent; not much air circulation, sweaty, hot and heavy.
From what I gather, the same swimming pools also ban these other forms of loose clothing for the same issues.
People with large baggy coats with multiple pockets are watched more in stores and it's not due to discrimination, it makes sense.

reddeath26, Huh?...I do not support banning burkas. Outside of the safety issues, I am not into forcing anyone to stop wearing a burka if that's what they choose.

juniper_silver
\ (•◡•) /
396.93
juniper_silver is offline
 
#16
Old 08-13-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:
What if we forced all people of Chinese ethnicity to cover up more then other races?. Because Chinese are "frail" and need protection ( not saying they are,just an example). Even if some individual Chinese choose to dress like this it would still be racist because the expectations would be they dress like this and others are not expected to.
This is not the same at all. Islamic people aren't a race, there are people of various ethnicities that choose to follow the Islamic religion. I can not tell you about other counties standards and whether it's really a choice there, but from what I've seen in America, it is a choice for both the men and women who practice Islam.

You are talking about forcing all Chinese people to cover up. That is not the same thing at all as someone making a choice to cover up because their religion tells them they should.

Last edited by juniper_silver; 08-13-2009 at 05:44 PM..

Claudia
(っ◕‿◕)&...
113.80
Claudia is offline
 
#17
Old 08-13-2009, 06:14 PM

This religion says a certain gender should be covered up, I don't see the difference between that and saying a certain race should be covered up.

Stormlick
⊙ω⊙
430.02
Stormlick is offline
 
#18
Old 08-13-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudia View Post
Stormlick.
I said it was sexist. Whether or not their culture is different does that change this fact.
However they feel about the sexism doesn't change that it's there.
Nobody is probably going to share a picture to disprove this fact, because I'm guessing none exists.
The truth is the men are often dressed conventionally while the women are expected to wear the burkas due to their gender. There is no other reason given for wearing them then being a certain gender.
I never said anything about taking away their choice unless in situations where their choice interferes with safety.
How is it sexist, exactly, if it's a choice on the woman's part to wear a burka? (Like it is, in very many Muslim communities.) I don't usually get my facts from pictures, by the by.

Sho-Shonojo
(っ◕‿◕)&...
563.04
Sho-Shonojo is offline
 
#19
Old 08-13-2009, 07:05 PM

Well I'm under the belief that these women should be allowed to wear burkas if they should choose to. Looking at the picture, I'm not sure how the burkini is dangerous. It really isn't that loose so I'm not sure what the issue is.

I understand the suspicion over people being able to hide things in burkas, but there are other people besides those of the Islamic religion that wear extremely loose clothing. (giant pants hanging off peoples butts) While these people may also seem more suspicious, these clothes haven't been banned. (though people have tried in some areas).

Of course, then I was looking at it from another angle. Nudists are people, that by belief, don't wear clothes. But this is not allowed in public due to moral beliefs of the common people. So I guess, if people can be forced to wear clothes, then people can be forced to wear clothes. I don't particularly agree with it though.

Nalah Sin
Mostly harmless
19.92
Nalah Sin is offline
 
#20
Old 08-13-2009, 07:05 PM

I have to agree with Claudia that the dress code is sexist, but no more than the sexist "western" rule that men are not supposed to wear skirts and women are supposed to dress up nicely. Just like with the burka you of course have a choice whether to follow those rules or not, but you'll have to face the consequences later on.
(In other words: Society sucks, no matter what religion or culture.)

What I really hate though is that where I live I'm supposed to accept that women wearing burkas are excluded from following laws that prohibit other people to mask themselves in public. There's a good reason for those laws (Claudia mentioned a couple in her first post), so why are they allowed to ignore them just because of their personal decision to wear a burka? What about my personal decision to wear a ski mask?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sho-Shonojo View Post
Well I'm under the belief that these women should be allowed to wear burkas if they should choose to. Looking at the picture, I'm not sure how the burkini is dangerous. It really isn't that loose so I'm not sure what the issue is.
I think it's because of how wet cloth tends to pull you down after a while. At least that's what we were told during our swimming lessons, and why we are always supposed to rather wear bikinis/bathing suits/swimming shorts instead of normal clothing.

Last edited by Nalah Sin; 08-13-2009 at 07:13 PM..

Bartuc
Sky Pirate
195944.43
Bartuc is offline
 
#21
Old 08-13-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tallest Building Ever View Post
I really don't want to start a huge debate over all of this but I honestly feel like your post is rather ignorant.
I do not practice Islam, but I can tell you right now that Islam is not a sexist religion by any means.

A few countries that are considered Islam may oppress women, but Islam doesn't oppress women.
Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings.

Islamic women do it because they want to.
And Muslim women DO dress how they want.
They WANT to wear long skirts or pants.
They WANT to wear a headscarf.
They DONT WANT to wear make up.
Where are your facts for this? 'Cause I have seen a muslim women get the shit beat out of her for pulling her headscarf to the back of her head for a quick second.

Stormlick
⊙ω⊙
430.02
Stormlick is offline
 
#22
Old 08-13-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartuc View Post
Where are your facts for this? 'Cause I have seen a muslim women get the shit beat out of her for pulling her headscarf to the back of her head for a quick second.
Islam doesn't dictate the life of every single Muslim woman. Islam does not oppress Muslim women. Some Muslim men do, claiming they are told to do so by the the Qu'ran and the Hadith, but according to many Imams there are no such things written in any of the holy texts of Islam. But I guess every religious text is subject to sick interpretation by fundamentalists and/or extremists. But. Just because there are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, what have you extremists does not mean religion is oppressive. That's just generalizing too strongly.

Infinitys Echo
(っ◕‿◕)&...
1491.62
Infinitys Echo is offline
 
#23
Old 08-13-2009, 10:19 PM

Where to start?

The case of the woman not being allowed into the pool. It is for health and safety issues. They are NOT discriminating as they enforce these rules on EVERYONE. I saw the article when it came out. Example, men are not allowed to wear the "boxer" type swim trunks, they must be form hugging so to speak. Women must wear form fitting suits as well. All must wear swimming caps. And they must shower before entering the pool. These things were put about as it was said that loose clothing can carry dirt, germs, and bacteria easily. Yes, it's still going to be there, but with the clothing rules and then having to shower quickly before entering, you reduce the amount of those things entering the pool water.

As for security issues in other instances, I agree as well. There was a case of a woman refusing to take her garb from her face for the picture on her license. Your picture is on there to be able to identify you. If your face is covered, you cannot be identified. A license is a privilege, not a right. If you won't uncover your face, then you get no license.

Not all Muslim women WANT to wear those clothes. There are many that are forced to wear them or risk retaliation from the laws in their area. There is another case right now in the news of the woman who wore loose fitting pants along with some other women. The other women already admitted to guilt and took their lashings (yes, lashings). This woman has refused and is going to court. She says her dress was not indecent and is trying to fight the ruling. She risks 40 lashes. As of yesterday, she was invited to go to anther country to speak about the issue and found that she was then put on a list that denies her ability to leave the country now.

I can't think of my other points at this time.

Kah Hilzin-Ec
The little creep with the weird ...
68609.53
Send a message via MSN to Kah Hilzin-Ec
Kah Hilzin-Ec is offline
 
#24
Old 08-14-2009, 01:15 AM

I've been told that the only country where it's obligatory for women to wear burkas was Irak, and that in the rest of muslim countries, it was optional and women would wear it for the same reason Tsachila women use long dark skirts of thick fabric and use a single braid: because they want to, and some are even proud of doing so. I personally see it as uncofortable, but, hell, if they're happy that way and are harming no one, then there's no problem.

HOWEVER, whether it was reasonable to ban her from the pool or not for using a burkini, I think it depends on the pool. If it's a small, shallow pool, I see no problem; but with deep pools, and I mean those that surpass the 1.55 meters of depth, it can be dangerous for the burkini user. Has ever rain soaked completely your clothes? You might have noticed water makes fabric weight more. And certainly, the more clothes you use in a pool, the harder it is to keep yourself afloat and swim. So, if the pool was deep, the authorities just wanted to prevent a possible incident and having to take responsabilities for letting her do it.

As for other things, if showing your face is necessary to obtain priviledges in the country you're living in, you should. It's reasonable to have to take off the mask if you're going to get a license, hell, it's for indentification, they need something you can't change everyday to identify you.

But really, One can cover up weapons with many other clothes that do not necessarily represent ethnic, religious, or social groups. Baggy pants, dresses [imagine how much I can hide under a lolita dress, or better, a wedding dress, and everybody would be congratulating me! :insane:], hats, jackets, and so on.

Infinitys Echo
(っ◕‿◕)&...
1491.62
Infinitys Echo is offline
 
#25
Old 08-14-2009, 02:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
I've been told that the only country where it's obligatory for women to wear burkas was Irak, and that in the rest of muslim countries, it was optional and women would wear it for the same reason Tsachila women use long dark skirts of thick fabric and use a single braid: because they want to, and some are even proud of doing so. I personally see it as uncofortable, but, hell, if they're happy that way and are harming no one, then there's no problem.

HOWEVER, whether it was reasonable to ban her from the pool or not for using a burkini, I think it depends on the pool. If it's a small, shallow pool, I see no problem; but with deep pools, and I mean those that surpass the 1.55 meters of depth, it can be dangerous for the burkini user. Has ever rain soaked completely your clothes? You might have noticed water makes fabric weight more. And certainly, the more clothes you use in a pool, the harder it is to keep yourself afloat and swim. So, if the pool was deep, the authorities just wanted to prevent a possible incident and having to take responsabilities for letting her do it.

As for other things, if showing your face is necessary to obtain priviledges in the country you're living in, you should. It's reasonable to have to take off the mask if you're going to get a license, hell, it's for indentification, they need something you can't change everyday to identify you.

But really, One can cover up weapons with many other clothes that do not necessarily represent ethnic, religious, or social groups. Baggy pants, dresses [imagine how much I can hide under a lolita dress, or better, a wedding dress, and everybody would be congratulating me! :insane:], hats, jackets, and so on.
The story I referred to about the woman wearing trousers and being charged for it is in Sudan. I hope I do this right, here's the link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090811/...trousers_odd_1 Iraq isn't the only country to have laws about it. It may not specify it, but they word it in such ways as to make it illegal, like this country does by saying it's indecent.

 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 

 
Forum Jump

no new posts