View Poll Results: Being a homosexual
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Knitted Doll
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#26
Old 08-18-2009, 09:29 PM

@Kah: I'm not sure how much of that you can consider religious, and how much cultural though (and if you can seperate the two). While that may have been the case at the time (we can't take the bible as the literal word of God and always true forever; it's a blend of history, religion, rules for living, and some other random crap they threw in there (like there are four apostles because there are four winds, for some reason)), I wouldn't say it's what most christians would say today. Similarly, I don't think all muslims would say the same either; certainly the families of the girls I went to school with valued them as much as their sons.
I think the issue of how arabic countries punish people isn't necessarily relevant, although I know atrocities occur there (for example, in Iran a woman has to be able to produce witnesses to prove that she was raped); a lot of what is happening isn't mandated by the Prophet himself, but is more passed-down tradition. For example, the veil is a medieval invention rather then something specifically mandated. It seems to have developed more culturally then religiously, even if the two are intertwined. It's really interesting looking at how these things develop :3

@Kaitie: Are you talking about Onan? If so, the point was that he was supposed to get his dead brother's wife pregnant so that his brother would have an heir, but pulled back at the last second because he didn't want to father a child that wouldn't be 'his'.

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#27
Old 08-19-2009, 01:57 AM

I'm not gay.. but I'm bisexual. And I'm in a gay relationship.. and I have been for over two and a half years.
This argument, to me, that being homosexual or bisexual is a sin, is just plain ridiculous.
The same people who say that being gay is a sin, overlook many other "sins" in the bible such as gluttony, greed, and lust. I've seen a lot of videos with people protesting gay marriage.. and half of them are fatasses.. excuse my language. And I'm sure a lot of them are greedy too. Take California for instance..
They allowed gay marriage for a little while.. earned the state some money off of their weddings.. and then they took our freedom away from us. I wouldn't be suprised if this event repeated itself.. once they need a little boost of economy they'll let a few dozen marriages take place.. and then take it away again.

I don't even get into religious talks.. because I am not religious. I've never read the Bible.. it was written by man, not God.
You don't have to be religious to be spiritual either.. and here on Earth, we're all created equally.. our souls will all go back to the heavens.. and while we live life here on Earth, we're supposed to look out for each other.. treat each other with respect as we wish to be treated.

This fight for our freedom reminds of the civil rights movement.. African Americans needed to fight for their freedom and acceptance..
There isn't much difference here.

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#28
Old 08-19-2009, 03:32 AM

You technically summarized it correctly; Politics and Religion shouldnt mix.
But we live in a society, or in other words, a time in which same as in the past, people are not willing to accept two people from the same sex.
Their opinions vary from Religious to personal ones.
Im an Atheist and a noob for anything that relates to the Bible, so I can't argue on the topic of that.
We are all born the same way and share the same fate, why discriminate against another for their personal choice or orientation?
The banning of Gay marriage in California is ridiculous, but there's nothing much to be done now.

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#29
Old 08-19-2009, 11:01 AM

Truthfully, the bible doesn't have anything against gay marriage in it. Most referances to homosexuality in general are vague at best. Which is why a lot of Christians I know are pro GLBT. The people who do say that it is part of their religion are only using their own (or someone else's) misguided interperatation to further their own agenda. Unless they define religion as a very personal thing that they create the rules for. But then they wouldn't be associated with any church or organized religion. I've studied religion quite a bit and there really isn't many religions that expressly prohibit homosexuality.

But honestly, you could likely credit the wide misconception of Christians that their own religion is against homosexuality to ignorance. That in and of itself is a tough decision for me. Rather or not I can blame someone for their ignorance. Willful ignorance, I certainly can, but honest lack of knowledge and understanding is something I can't bring myself to blame someone for.

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#30
Old 08-19-2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddeath26 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivid View Post
Yes, you are born gay, and yes, it is genetic. Sorry to break it to you.
Really? Scientists have finally discovered the gene/s which control a persons sexuality? I would love to see your proof for such a claim.
Not to mention if it IS genetic, that implies that I acquired the genes from my parents, and my siblings are in possession of the same genes.

Also implies that other relatives would be gay then as well, as genes are passed on.
But tell me this if it is genetic, why can one twin, in possession of the EXACT SAME GENES, be straight while the other is gay?

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#31
Old 08-19-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Random Randomness View Post
Not to mention if it IS genetic, that implies that I acquired the genes from my parents, and my siblings are in possession of the same genes.

Also implies that other relatives would be gay then as well, as genes are passed on.
But tell me this if it is genetic, why can one twin, in possession of the EXACT SAME GENES, be straight while the other is gay?
Because genetics aren't all that simple. "The Gay Gene" could skip a generation. It could be stronger in one twin than the other. Identical twins have often been known to develop genetic disorders aside from each other: I know a pair where one has childhood diabetes and the other doesn't, and they are identical in every aspect but that one. Even generational social issues can come into effect. My mother isn't gay. My father isn't gay. I'm fairly certain that none of my grandparents are gay. However, I had a great-aunt on my mother's side who, while she may not have been homosexual, never married. It could be very possible that my grandmother's sister was a lesbian and, because of the state of society, could not express so. After all, when my grandmother was young, being homosexual was considered a mental disease that could be cured by frontal lobotomy. If you were gay and valued your brain, you kept your mouth shut.

Sometimes it is a matter of population. When there is a high population of an animal in one area, the likelihood of a few of them either rejecting the opposite gender of that species as a mate, or rejecting sex altogether, is higher. Once a population hits a tipping point, it no longer has the need to continue reproducing. And with a population of 6 billion humans in the world, don't you think its appropriate that we might have the same phenomenon?

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#32
Old 08-20-2009, 06:03 AM

Being gay is not a sin. Who ever came up with that idea sould re-read the bible, mind you I have to read it to, but what I have learned from what I have been taught about the bible is that God loves us no mater what we do, who we love and stuff like that, as long as we don't turn our backs on him and follow something different, God will always love us! and i agree with TideToGo politics and religion do not mix, keep religion to religious people and politicas to the politions


*sorry about my spelling spell checks not working tonight*

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#33
Old 08-20-2009, 07:36 AM

I don't think gay is a sin, personally. But according to some religions, it is. This doesn't mean followers of that religion have a right to discriminate against those people under anything the government covers, though, and they definitely shouldn't in person matters either. I don't think religion should have any place in the government. It's why we founded this country, after all. Separation of church and state.

I've read a bit online, and I think everyone is a tiny-bit gay. Like, in all the world, you may see someone of the same sex you want to marry/have sex with/whatever. And some people are just more gay than others. So yes, I believe everyone is born gay. However, I think several factors, including just being born, effect the degree of homosexuality.

Gay marriage not being legal makes my head hurt. They're using religion as an argument, when clearly that's what this country is against. And if gays can't marry, why can straight people divorce? Why can atheists marry? I don't believe priests should be forced to marry gay couples, but at the very, very least, marriage shouldn't have any legal benefits unless it's available to everyone who wants to enter a lifelong partnership. It should be just for that specific religion to do as they please.

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#34
Old 08-20-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddeath26 View Post
Really? Scientists have finally discovered the gene/s which control a persons sexuality? I would love to see your proof for such a claim.
There is tons of evidence that sexuality is hereditary, you know.

See, homosexual males tend to have many physical features that are normally possessed by heterosexual females, such as index and ring fingers that are identical in length. Also, most homosexual males have counter-clockwise hair whorls, as well as being left-handed.

Why not just go research it yourself? I don't have to prove anything to you. :/

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#35
Old 08-20-2009, 04:54 PM

Being totally Atheist, I have no prospective about the "sin" part, but if I had to chose I would say "no" because it isn't hurting anyone.

Now for the rest. I believe that being gay is biological. There have been studies and it seems most logical. It's like a favourite food. We don't choose to like or dislike certain foods; our taste buds tell us what they think and our stomach lets us know if it can handle it. It's all biological and I believe that being gay is as well. One study I read gave substantial proof that there is a 3% chance for any male to be born gay, but that there is a 1.5% increase in that number for every biological older brother he has. Something to do with the mother's immune system and the testosterone.

I believe that gay marriage should be legal. I don't know yet if I'm the marrying type or just the type to "settle down" without any legal binding, but either way, I think anyone should be free to marry the person they love. What I find most unfair about it is the legal benefits you get from being married; because gays can't marry everywhere, they are being denied legal benefits. The one that irks me most of all is that a person cannot be forced to testify against their spouse in court because they are considered one entity and the fifth amendment protects people from having to incriminate themselves.

Being gay myself I feel very strongly on this matter. I'm not saying I hate people who disagree; you can think anything you want to think, worship your way, believe whatever you want. I won't fight you on that. Just leave me and my people out of it.

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#36
Old 08-20-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imoto-chan_Always View Post
Being totally Atheist, I have no prospective about the "sin" part, but if I had to chose I would say "no" because it isn't hurting anyone.

Now for the rest. I believe that being gay is biological. There have been studies and it seems most logical. It's like a favourite food. We don't choose to like or dislike certain foods; our taste buds tell us what they think and our stomach lets us know if it can handle it. It's all biological and I believe that being gay is as well. One study I read gave substantial proof that there is a 3% chance for any male to be born gay, but that there is a 1.5% increase in that number for every biological older brother he has. Something to do with the mother's immune system and the testosterone.
Yes, that's incredibly interesting! Something about the mother's womb seeing the male fetus as a foreign object and feminizing it.

I've seen this in action aswell, a friend of mine has many brothers (4 or 5) and the second youngest is very feminine.

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#37
Old 08-21-2009, 03:47 AM

I have a friend who is the fourth boy... and he's gay! 8D I've also heard that thing about the finger length, that if women have their ring finger longer instead of the same lenght than the index, they're lesbians. Well, my mom did have her index and ring finger the same lenght, and my ring finger was longer than the index, but the rest of my female schoolmates had their fingers like me, and none of them are [or admit to be] lesbians.

Plus, I'm not lesbian, I'm bi. I can make my fingers stand at the same lenght, but only in an extremely uncomfortable position for my hand, just like I can go from american to european with my toe finger 8D;;

Anyways, I think these articles are worth reading them.

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#38
Old 08-21-2009, 04:01 AM

Those are some interesting articles. It occurs to me that the reason the research on this subject isn't controversial because of the possible results, but because for best analysis you would have to study a working brain. Or, for the debate on whether it occurs in the womb or not, you would have to find a cadaver of a woman who was more than six months pregnant with a predeterminedly homosexual child. o_o

I also stand by my population theory, though I don't have articles or a PhD in anything to back it up. Just an observation I made once, extended the metaphor.

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#39
Old 08-21-2009, 04:20 AM

I like to think the rising amount of gay people is nature's way to tell us "Stop breeding like lice, I can't support you all!" ;) [of course, we know there's way more to it than my simple yet fun thought]

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#40
Old 08-21-2009, 04:33 AM

No... I think the simple explanation is often the best one. It appeals to the "common man." Or something.

Genetics and population are often linked. We stopped being covered in carpet-thick-hair because we became the top of the food chain and bred like rabbits. Homosexuality is not as efficient of population control, though because we have the choice of pretending not to be gay for the sake of society.

I know, a little backwards, right? xD

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#41
Old 08-21-2009, 05:11 AM

I've also thought that homosexuality was a small form of population control, myself. It would make sense, even if it isn't always effective.

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#42
Old 08-21-2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deji-chan View Post
I don't think gay is a sin, personally. But according to some religions, it is. This doesn't mean followers of that religion have a right to discriminate against those people under anything the government covers, though, and they definitely shouldn't in person matters either. I don't think religion should have any place in the government. It's why we founded this country, after all. Separation of church and state.

I've read a bit online, and I think everyone is a tiny-bit gay. Like, in all the world, you may see someone of the same sex you want to marry/have sex with/whatever. And some people are just more gay than others. So yes, I believe everyone is born gay. However, I think several factors, including just being born, effect the degree of homosexuality.

Gay marriage not being legal makes my head hurt. They're using religion as an argument, when clearly that's what this country is against. And if gays can't marry, why can straight people divorce? Why can atheists marry? I don't believe priests should be forced to marry gay couples, but at the very, very least, marriage shouldn't have any legal benefits unless it's available to everyone who wants to enter a lifelong partnership. It should be just for that specific religion to do as they please.
DAMN STRAIGHT.

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#43
Old 08-21-2009, 06:45 PM

damn...my dad is a jahovah witness. and my best friend is gay.......hmmmm not a good mix huh.

anyway i must say its nobodys business what goes on behind the bedroom door. and no its not a sin.

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#44
Old 08-22-2009, 04:28 AM

society dictates everything that we do. what's "normal" now in society is a man and a woman get married and have children. people naturally fear anything is different in society, i.e. gays/lesbians/transexual/etc. but people aren't willing to accept the fact that they fear anything different, so they blame it on religion. god says that being gay is wrong, so that means that gays can't get married, blah blah blah.

i think that gay people are born gay, if it was a choice then there wouldn't have been gay people when you could be killed for liking someone of your own gender. there are also homosexuals in other species, like female cows that want to get it on with female cows.

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#45
Old 08-22-2009, 10:58 PM

I think it's really stupid that people think being gay or lezbian is a sin. If this Jesus and God so many people beleive in loves everyone why does't he love homosexuals? Christians just don't like people who are different or beleive different then they do. It makes me mad because I think that if you love someone you shouldn't have to hide your feelings from other people no matter the gender of the person you are in love with. Its hard for me to watch people on the streets ridicule homosexuals. And it's mainly men! Apparently lezbians or bi women are so hot and it doesn't exactly bother people as much as it bothers people when a man is gay or bi. Thats sexist because women and men should be able to love anyone they want not who society thinks they should love based on there gender. It's there life, its there choice so they should be able to love whoever they please.

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#46
Old 08-22-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Random Randomness View Post
Not to mention if it IS genetic, that implies that I acquired the genes from my parents, and my siblings are in possession of the same genes.

Also implies that other relatives would be gay then as well, as genes are passed on.
This isn't quite true, as you can not with any level of accuracy determine what genes you will inherit from each parent. As there are 23 pairs of chromosomes, this gives us 8,368,608 different combinations which we can receive from one of our parents alone! As you can see then the probability of getting the same combination as a sibling shrinks drastically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Some Random Randomness View Post
But tell me this if it is genetic, why can one twin, in possession of the EXACT SAME GENES, be straight while the other is gay?
This however is a valid counter to the claim that genetics alone determines any behavioural and cultural traits. As it is important to remember that many a time the environment will have an influence over such things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivid View Post
There is tons of evidence that sexuality is hereditary, you know.
I can not help but notice the irony in that you are able to so boldly claim that there is tons of evidence supporting your claim, while simultaneously failing to produce any to back said claim up. Perhaps you have been yet another victim of Genomania?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivid View Post
See, homosexual males tend to have many physical features that are normally possessed by heterosexual females, such as index and ring fingers that are identical in length. Also, most homosexual males have counter-clockwise hair whorls, as well as being left-handed.
It gets even more interesting as I follow your post further along, doesn't it? Suddenly after professing that it is hereditary your language changes and the word "tend" pops up. Why the sudden uncertainty? After all you had all but dismissed the notion that there can be any other influences over a persons sexuality. I am also curious as to why you are only addressing homosexuality? As I deliberately worded my question in such a way as to clarify that I was not limiting it to homosexuality vs heterosexuality. Although you do follow this up by returning to your confidence. Perhaps your genomania beliefs kicked in again and you got your second wind. Although I am also curious as to how you can claim "most" homosexuals contain those traits. I am unaware there has been any attempt undergo such an extensive study on all the homosexuals.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivid View Post
Why not just go research it yourself? I don't have to prove anything to you. :/
Going by Debating protocol, Burden of proof establishes that the person making a claim when asked is required to back their assertions up. As for the researching it myself, funnily enough I just happen to be taking a paper at this very moment which touches on it.

Last edited by reddeath26; 08-26-2009 at 08:34 AM.. Reason: Fixed a quote tag

Kah Hilzin-Ec
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#47
Old 08-26-2009, 08:25 AM

That last post hurt, and it wasn't even directed at me o_o

Talking about twins being different, I remember reading an article that expressed people's DNA slightly mutated over time as an effect produced by environmental causes. That might have to do with it. [Found the link!]

Your second quote of Vivid sounds like proof to me. Maybe not backed up by a link to a non-Menewshan page, but if we were to request real evidence, wouldn't we have to examine the whole study made by the genetists themselves so to not be biased?

I think she used the word "tend" because it's not always like that with genetics. That gene could end up as a recessive trait. Just like the son of a black man and a black woman tends to be born black, and yet, sometime ago the son of a black couple came out white. Turns out that the gene inherited by a white grandparent ended up as a dominant instead of a recessive.

The third quote would be valid considering this is the internet and the anonimousy [I think I just invented that word... how is it spelt?] it brings lets people not compromise if they don't want to. However, this is the debate section, and as such, one must give proof to make an argument. By that last statement, I fail, but it's still true.

Last edited by Kah Hilzin-Ec; 08-26-2009 at 08:32 AM.. Reason: Found the link :0

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#48
Old 08-26-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
That last post hurt, and it wasn't even directed at me o_o

Talking about twins being different, I remember reading an article that expressed people's DNA slightly mutated over time as an effect produced by environmental causes. That might have to do with it. [Found the link!]

There is also the cultural element to take into account. As one problem I have noticed with many attempts to establish a genetics cause for sexual orientation (aside from acting like only two exist) is they assume that both our understandings of sexuality and gender are universal. This can be demonstrated quite clearly when they come up with the label of the supposed universal heterosexual female. What exactly is the normal female? If I am to look at a number of different ethnic groups I will come to the conclusion that this is quite slippery and hard to pin down. So if we can not even establish what it means to be a male or female (talking gender here), how can we hope to pin down something as complex as sexuality.

Take a look at cultures with Shaman among them. Quite often you will find the water getting murky here as a common belief is that they are above and beyond gender limitations. Indeed it is not uncommon to hold that they can be both male and female at the same time. Or how about cultures where homosexuality has ritualistic value?

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#49
Old 08-26-2009, 09:09 AM

Shaman having no gender... I think... hindu, right? The last one I haven't heard though.

Of course, genetics, if it isn't solid, then it has a million shades, and just like skin color, I'm guessing it's the same with sexuality. That would certainly explain those who identify themselves with different points in the Kinsey scale xD

And hell, it's not hard to guess gender roles are perceived differently depending on the culture and environment you live in. A Swiss woman doesn't have the same roles and expectations than a Tsachila or a Chinese woman compared to their male counterparts. And that includes how they perceive sexuality.

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#50
Old 08-26-2009, 05:58 PM

I don't think being gay is a sin. I read the bible, but I still think it wasn't about homosexuality. I think it was a cultural thing, and the fact that roman society was ...well no pro-homosexual, but ...it was considered normal back then.

I have read about this and studied this a lot. and I think it's more about prostitution being a sin more so than homosexuality. I also think having sex before marriage is a sin, but the fact is, if homosexuals can't get married legally, then...what are they suppose to do? I'm very conflicted about this subject.. I don't think it is a sin, and I think others around me at church and stuff think I"m a weirdo..because I think that.

but you have to look at Jesus, he said that all you had to do to go to heaven was to believe in him, and only worship God, and to love your neighbor. Thats what it takes, forget everything else. People sin everyday..

I support gay marriage.. and I think people in most cases are born homosexual. I know of only one person who decided to become a lesbian after she was raped, and treated horribly by men. I feel sorry for her, but...really that's the only case I know, and I really don't blame her.

 



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