View Poll Results: Being a homosexual
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reddeath26
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#51
Old 08-26-2009, 07:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
Shaman having no gender... I think... hindu, right? The last one I haven't heard though.

Of course, genetics, if it isn't solid, then it has a million shades, and just like skin color, I'm guessing it's the same with sexuality. That would certainly explain those who identify themselves with different points in the Kinsey scale xD

And hell, it's not hard to guess gender roles are perceived differently depending on the culture and environment you live in. A Swiss woman doesn't have the same roles and expectations than a Tsachila or a Chinese woman compared to their male counterparts. And that includes how they perceive sexuality.
Exactly, you get my point. Although from my encounters with you, I have found you to be a wise person indeed (haha is my bias showing?). But with genetics even if it did have an influence over areas like sexuality, you can not deny the effect that environment is having. As different cultures have at times highly contrasting understandings of Gender and sexuality, this will have an immense impact on a persons sexuality.

As for Shaman having no Gender, I was thinking more along the lines of certain Inuit tribes. As well as peoples who believe that Shaman are possessed by a spirit of the opposite gender. This is something I just recently got introduced to as part of my readings however. I am interested in what you were thinking of though.

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#52
Old 08-27-2009, 07:48 AM

*rips hair off* WE AGREE! The end is near! [/offtopic]

Yep, the environment does affect someone. For example, had my father been born in Germany, he would be white instead of toasted. But getting to sexuality, this would have to do with influences about sexual identities, beliefs and acceptance. You could be gay but if you were conditioned to believe it's an awful act you would most likely marry a woman or never marry. However, if you were taught it's not bad, then you wouldn't even try to hide it.

Oh, and I was thinking of the Hijra. It's described as a Third Gender on Wikipedia >.>'

Last edited by Kah Hilzin-Ec; 08-27-2009 at 07:51 AM..

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#53
Old 08-27-2009, 02:03 PM

I'm inclined to agree with Kah Hilzin-Ec: culture has more of an affect on the way someone feels about their sexuality and sexual orientation. If a Native American "Two-Spirit" is given a higher or different (but not worse) status, then that person is more likely to not be ashamed of their behavior. Keeping within the subject of Native Americans, tribes that revere Two-Spirits are likely to have at least one per generation. Often times, they were medicine men/women, traders, chiefs, or prophets. On the other side of the coin, the Eyak tribe is accounted for having kept Two-Spirits in low regard and as such no one has had an encounter with an Eyak Two-Spirit. In New Guinea, there is a tribe of people (I want to say the Étoro, but it has been awhile since I took ANTH) practice ritual homosexual acts. They believe that semen is the life-force for which a man lives and by using such a life force, they die earlier. So as a rite of passage, they intake semen orally. In that culture, homosexuality is acceptable. As long as you're male, of course. If you're a lesbian in this particular tribe, you're a witch.

However, in places such as my current residence, the gay community has before been the subject of many a protest. For the longest time, I denied that I was bisexual because I have had many friends hurt physically for admitting so. Badly enough that they have been sent to the hospital. (And honestly, it isn't the near-death that scares me. Its the hospital bill. For even a small wound, it can cost $500.) So you can imagine the concern of many people preferring to remain "in the closet."

A lot of times, the number of openly gay persons in a community relies on the consequences of being openly gay. In Toronto, there is a higher gay population. I believe this to be because the community does not strongly oppose it (but, in fact, seems to embrace it as a form of income: exemplified by Church St.) In midwestern Indiana, (outside of college campuses) more opposition equates with more threats to your well-being.

Though, I can see where this could easily become a chicken-egg scenario. One could easily say that there are more gays in Toronto because Church Street influences them to be gay, and that their behavior is the result of their environment and not the other way around. Who is to say, really? On any given study, it could be 50/50.

I do believe that many people who live in Toronto and are homosexual came to the conclusion that they were homosexual before they moved there, however.

Last edited by Hyena; 08-27-2009 at 02:29 PM..

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#54
Old 08-27-2009, 03:12 PM

I think that being gay is something biological more than a choice. There have been stories of gay people in ancient times. It's not just some trend someone got off the street. I believe that God loves you even if you are gay. After all, he made us what we are! I think politics is directly interfering with peoples lives in some ways that hurt more than help, like the example of states ruling out gay marriges.

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#55
Old 08-27-2009, 09:01 PM

They say (not me, christians) that a man should not sleep with another man in the bible. I asked someone about that once, asked them if it was ok in god's eyes for just women to sleep with each other. They laughed at me and said "God refers to everyone as man, as in man-kind" I then said "Doesnt god love all his children alike? Both good and bad?" they said yes to that and then I said "So then god looking down on gays is bias and being hypocritical for God then isnt it?" They didnt know what to say to that.

Im bi. I was always this way. No one taught me to be it. And its how Im going to stay. The "devil" did not entise me with fuitless passions. He did not trick me into anything. I genuinly love women just as much as men. I think a lot of gays, lesbians, and bi's are all that way. So you have to ask yourself this. If god made us, then wouldnt he make us with out these naturaly born desires? And if God made us in the imagine of himself, then does that mean he is some what gay himself?

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#56
Old 08-27-2009, 10:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiiruchan View Post
I think that being gay is something biological more than a choice. There have been stories of gay people in ancient times. It's not just some trend someone got off the street. I believe that God loves you even if you are gay. After all, he made us what we are! I think politics is directly interfering with peoples lives in some ways that hurt more than help, like the example of states ruling out gay marriges.
You are aware that how we understand sexuality and gender roles is determined in large part by our cultures right? The idea that such concepts as homosexuality and heterosexuality are polar opposites is a social construction. So in order to prove that these are based on genetics you would be required to prove that the cultural meaning behind them is also based on genetics. As they only have the meaning they do because we give them said meaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oukan View Post
They say (not me, christians) that a man should not sleep with another man in the bible. I asked someone about that once, asked them if it was ok in god's eyes for just women to sleep with each other. They laughed at me and said "God refers to everyone as man, as in man-kind" I then said "Doesnt god love all his children alike? Both good and bad?" they said yes to that and then I said "So then god looking down on gays is bias and being hypocritical for God then isnt it?" They didnt know what to say to that.

Im bi. I was always this way. No one taught me to be it. And its how Im going to stay. The "devil" did not entise me with fuitless passions. He did not trick me into anything. I genuinly love women just as much as men. I think a lot of gays, lesbians, and bi's are all that way. So you have to ask yourself this. If god made us, then wouldnt he make us with out these naturaly born desires? And if God made us in the imagine of himself, then does that mean he is some what gay himself?
Perhaps you would like to try and explain to me how exactly sexuality is caused by biology as opposed to culture? On a side note I do not see a clear distinction between "nature" and culture as all societies have culture, so it would only follow that it is natural.

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#57
Old 08-27-2009, 11:10 PM

Thats easy to explain. I can also give you an example. Everyone has a certain personality even at a very young age. Infants show distinct characteristics in the way they behave even before they can talk. For example my youngest daughter found it fun to grab at mommy's shirt and any othe woman's shirt and pull it down to see their breasts. And no one encouraged her to do so, matter of fact we tried to encourage her NOT to do so. She was very young when she started this and it was not cause she was simply curious or trying to breast feed. She just simply enjoys looking at breasts. I see there may be some homosexual characteristics there.
I was raised by my grandparents and we lived in the mountains. I didnt have any neighbors and we didnt watch tv much. I saw some saterday morning cartoons but that was it. And trust me the cartoons I watched was nothing like the ones they have today. There was no sexual, relationship type senarios in the old cartoons I use to watch. (We had things like my little ponies, pound puppies, smurfs, etc ). My grandparents never mentioned gays. I also didnt have many friends growing up. I didnt know anything about what gay ment till I was in middle school and a girl spent the night with me. It was the first time I had a friend over. I wanted to cuddle her in bed when she spent the night. When she went home and then to school she told everyone how I kept touching her breasts during the night and they all started outcasting me calling me a lesbian. I didnt understand at first. Cause I liked boys. But I also realized I liked girls too. I had always enjoyed looking at women's breasts - weither they knew I was looking or not. I liked hugging girls cause it felt nice to feel the breasts. And later on when I got in summer camp and had a public locker room with the girls, I realized I liked everything about their body. But no one encouraged me too or anything like that growing up. I didnt become bi, I was always bi. And just as any person who is straight becomes more in touch with their sexuality I did as well with mine.

edit: Also I would like to bring up the fact that animals are some times attracted to the same gender as well. I have a hen that crows and tries to mate other hens. =)

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#58
Old 08-27-2009, 11:39 PM

I think that the genetics vs. environment argument is another chicken v. egg scenario. Psychologists have been arguing if personality is genetic or enculturated for a century. And of course, anything having to do with the human brain is taboo.

Culture does effect the way one thinks, but there are so many incidents where there is the one person who doesn't think the same way. Bringing back the "Two-Spirit" discussion of Native Americans, no one told the female-bodied Two-Spirits that they would have all the same opportunities as men, or the reverse. They may have been told stories of "medicine men" or "prophets" of times past, but often times they don't say that it was a woman embodying the spirit of a man. They refer to Two-Spirits as the gender which embodies them.

It may not be directly genetic, but there is an old saying: "Every family has one." For my mother's side, that was my mother's Aunt Emily, for whom I am named. By complete coincidence, or perhaps it is fate, I am also bisexual. My mother never mentioned that her aunt was bisexual until very late in my life, perhaps because she didn't know herself. Now, by some cosmic catharsis, I'm also that one that every family has.

I realize that this doesn't generate any kind of proof, but I found the literary merit to it amusing.

There's really no evidence for either side of the coin that can't be discounted by the other. I think they're both very valid arguments, and I stick by my genetics + population theory.

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#59
Old 08-27-2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddeath26 View Post
Perhaps you would like to try and explain to me how exactly sexuality is caused by biology as opposed to culture? On a side note I do not see a clear distinction between "nature" and culture as all societies have culture, so it would only follow that it is natural.
Well, whether x society accepts or looks down upon homosexuality doesn't have to do with one's sexuality, but rather, how you view it and act upon it. If you're a man and you get sexual pleasure from acts with men, but you deny it because your society doesn't approve of it, then you're making a choice of hiding it, but that doesn't really change that you like men, it just make you act differently upon it than you would in a society that views it as normal.

Or at least, that's how I'm understanding it.

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#60
Old 08-27-2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyena View Post
I think that the genetics vs. environment argument is another chicken v. egg scenario. Psychologists have been arguing if personality is genetic or enculturated for a century. And of course, anything having to do with the human brain is taboo.

Culture does effect the way one thinks, but there are so many incidents where there is the one person who doesn't think the same way. Bringing back the "Two-Spirit" discussion of Native Americans, no one told the female-bodied Two-Spirits that they would have all the same opportunities as men, or the reverse. They may have been told stories of "medicine men" or "prophets" of times past, but often times they don't say that it was a woman embodying the spirit of a man. They refer to Two-Spirits as the gender which embodies them.

It may not be directly genetic, but there is an old saying: "Every family has one." For my mother's side, that was my mother's Aunt Emily, for whom I am named. By complete coincidence, or perhaps it is fate, I am also bisexual. My mother never mentioned that her aunt was bisexual until very late in my life, perhaps because she didn't know herself. Now, by some cosmic catharsis, I'm also that one that every family has.

I realize that this doesn't generate any kind of proof, but I found the literary merit to it amusing.

There's really no evidence for either side of the coin that can't be discounted by the other. I think they're both very valid arguments, and I stick by my genetics + population theory.
Its funny that you bring up the egg vs chicken saying. I was just saying in an earlier post in this thread that Ive found homosexuality common in animals. Does animals have a society that aids in them being attracted to the same or both genders? I highly doubt it. Did we encourage those animals to be that way? Na I dont see how we could. So it makes you have to think - is it really all about society and genetics? of course I understand if some people are born with more estrogen (sp?) then they should be, making them more feminen. And vise versa. Perhaps that has something to do with genetics. But on the other hand what about the women or men that are perfectly normal geneticly and physicly? Whats the excuse then?

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#61
Old 08-28-2009, 12:06 AM

I don't mind, and I don't think it's wrong.

Animals have homosexual tendencies as well, so I'm not surprised humans can be homosexual, since we are animals.

Speaking about God: how many other people said, God created us and our sexualities.

It's all okay, I think.

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#62
Old 08-28-2009, 12:29 AM

I somewhat feel like the point I am trying to make is getting missed. I am not arguing that culture causes X action to occur. But rather I am arguing that it causes us to give X action its value. Homosexuality and heterosexuality can only be distinguished from each other if we culturally define them as being different acts. It is from our cultural understandings of the world that we come to understand what males and females are and furthermore how male with male or female with female differs from female with male. I am provided with a good example from "Oukan" in their reply to me, which I will take a moment to draw on.

Quote:
my youngest daughter found it fun to grab at mommy's shirt and any othe woman's shirt and pull it down to see their breasts. And no one encouraged her to do so, matter of fact we tried to encourage her NOT to do so. She was very young when she started this and it was not cause she was simply curious or trying to breast feed. She just simply enjoys looking at breasts. I see there may be some homosexual characteristics there.
From this action of their youngest daughter they are using their cultural understandings of the world to give it meaning. An action can only have meaning when meaning is assigned to it. As our understandings of meanings are determined by our culture, it follows that whatever meaning certain actions are assigned (if any) will be determined in large part by our culture. Bringing this back to the topic of sexuality, our understandings of the difference between heterosexuality and homosexuality etc come in large part because we are a society which contains the heteronormativity belief. A good explanation of heteronormativity can be found here.

The example which has been provided alluding to other animals, like all examples of its kind carries the same limitation of super imposing our cultural values onto unrelated animals. It is always important to remember that they do not share our cultural understandings of how things work, so this will limit how far we can push our understandings onto them. A good example of this is shown with comparisons to ants. As I am sure you will be aware, a certain ant is referred to as the Queen ant. Appealing to our cultural understandings of hierarchy and monarchy this enables us to supposedly get an understanding of how the colony works. Yet if you were to approach the ant colony from a different angle you can get a rather different response. Lets say we are to call the Queen ant a slave ant instead? We could propose that they are confined to their prison and forced to spend their time continuously laying eggs.

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#63
Old 08-28-2009, 01:20 AM

I have no idea what kind of point your trying to get across now. its all over the place in your last post.

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#64
Old 08-28-2009, 02:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oukan View Post
I have no idea what kind of point your trying to get across now. its all over the place in your last post.
I was simply highlighting that things like sexuality and gender are dependent on our cultural understandings assigning meaning to them. Namely they are social constructions. While messily, I used your example of your daughter to demonstrate how you are assigning a value to their behaviour. I then further demonstrated the role culture can have by introducing heteronormativity to the equation. I was even kind enough to provide a link explaining what heteronomativity is. The link I used is here!

Finally I explained that the way our culture shapes our understandings of the world, will also cause comparisons to other animals to also be biased. When we look at the animal world, we are seeing them through our cultural lens. I attempted to demonstrate how a different lens can produce a different response by drawing on the example of an Ant colony.

So my point has been to establish that it is through our cultural understandings of the world that we give meaning to traits and behaviour. As such, without such social constructions homosexuality and heterosexuality etc can not be distinguished from each other.

Has this clarified my position more for you? Although I do suspect you asked such a question, to spite me. Especially as the link I provided explained my point of view quite nicely.

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#65
Old 08-28-2009, 02:57 AM

Is heteronormativity a "If you're a man you must not use skirts or you're gay" kind of thing?

I always saw the queen ant as some sort of slave of her colony xD Doesn't have to do with the culture but from an analysis of her function. I... thiiink... I understand you on that our culture conditions one to think this or that way. I know my dad is a weirdo for liking to work and wanting to die working.

But going back to your use of her example - are you insinuating that the girl's tendency to grab breasts might have nothing to do with homosexuality but just and only for liking the feel of breasts? And that she's giving it an homosexual value because she's been taught by her society to think that if a female grabs some other female's breast she's a lesbian?

And what about animals? Do they have some sort of culture that conditions them to act homosexual and I'm not aware of, or it's that they're not culturally influenced in any way, so their biologic desires are not clouded by that factor and are able to act upon them?

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#66
Old 08-28-2009, 03:03 AM

I think what he is trying to say in a way that we stupid people cant understand. Is that he doesnt believe in anyone being either gay or straight. Correct me if Im wrong. That he thinks we are all behaving normal and none of us are different - that its society that teaches us to think there is a difference?

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#67
Old 08-28-2009, 03:09 AM

It's hard to argue with him. He expresses his thoughts in such a textbook way that I can't help but read 3 to 5 times his post before writing mine, and checking back another couple to make sure I'm not getting it the wrong way :gonk:

And I never understood it that way, Oukan. Maybe the first part, but the last sentence is that doesn't seem like the point he was trying to make to me. Though, I can't really know.

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#68
Old 08-28-2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
It's hard to argue with him. He expresses his thoughts in such a textbook way that I can't help but read 3 to 5 times his post before writing mine, and checking back another couple to make sure I'm not getting it the wrong way :gonk:

And I never understood it that way, Oukan. Maybe the first part, but the last sentence is that doesn't seem like the point he was trying to make to me. Though, I can't really know.
I cant be for sure either, it was just a guess XD

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#69
Old 08-28-2009, 04:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
Is heteronormativity a "If you're a man you must not use skirts or you're gay" kind of thing?
I am going to take more of a cop out option in this reply, as I have thus far been unable to express my views clearly enough to be understood. In regards to heteronormativity, I would highlight this aspect of my link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~taylor/Heteronormativity.htm
Heteronormativity is a term used to refer to the institutionalization of heterosexuality in a society. Heteronormativity stems from the essentialist belief that there are only two sexes- male and female, and that a certain set of behaviours and expectations follow from one’s sex. It is a view of the world which constructs binaries: man/woman, gay/straight – and sets them in opposition to each other. Heterosexuality is taken to be the only natural and correct form of sexuality – “natural, universal, and monolithic,” as Chrys Ingraham writes. It causes people to not only never question heterosexuality and gender roles, but to take them for granted. Heteronormativity is represented in societal attitudes, in the family, in institutions and the law, placing everything else in the uninhabitable zone.
Does this clarify what I mean in any way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
I always saw the queen ant as some sort of slave of her colony xD Doesn't have to do with the culture but from an analysis of her function. I... thiiink... I understand you on that our culture conditions one to think this or that way. I know my dad is a weirdo for liking to work and wanting to die working.
Yep, that is pretty much it. The way we understand and interpret what we see in the animal world will be determined by what tools our culture offers us. Although I will try to ensure clarification has been reached by providing a citation which is response to another comparison of animals to humanity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sociobiology-A new Biological Determinism from Biology as a Social weapon
Analogies arise by a twisted process of imposing human institutions upon animals by forced comparisons.
They then give a much nicer explanation of the Ant example I managed to butcher so nicely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sociobiology-A new Biological Determinism from Biology as a Social weapon
A classic example, long antedating Sociobiology, is "slavery" in ants. "Slave-making" species capture the immature stages of "slave" species and bring them back to their nests. When the captured workers hatch, they perform housekeeping tasks with no compulsion as though they were members of the captor species. Why is this "slave-making" instead of "domestication"? Human slavery involves, first, members of one's own species, second, continued compulsion, and, third, the slave as an article of exchange, a commodity engaged in the production of commodities. Slavery is a human form of capital investment. It has nothing to do with ants, except by weak and meaningless analogy.
I feel somewhat worried here as the ball has returned to my court, and I always miss in basketball :sweat: . But hopefully we can establish that our culture determines there are only two genders male and female, then going from this we impose this value upon the animals we are looking at. This is also supported when Lancaster (2003) cites Gayle Rubin.

Quote:
Gender is a socially imposed division of the sexes... Far from being an expression of natural differences, exclusive gender identity is the suppression of natural similarities... Gender is not only an identification with one sex, it also entails that sexual desire be directed towards the other sex
They also present some really interesting ideas in their book "The trouble with nature: Sex in science and popular culture" on how the concept of nature is used to marginalize and subordinate people who are not heterosexual.

Have I clarified any of my points any further?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oukan View Post
I think what he is trying to say in a way that we stupid people cant understand. Is that he doesnt believe in anyone being either gay or straight. Correct me if Im wrong. That he thinks we are all behaving normal and none of us are different - that its society that teaches us to think there is a difference?
Firstly I apologize for making the implication that I think you are stupid. The problem in our communication has been on my side and I hope this attempt has clarified things. Although you were quite close though, which made me happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
It's hard to argue with him. He expresses his thoughts in such a textbook way that I can't help but read 3 to 5 times his post before writing mine, and checking back another couple to make sure I'm not getting it the wrong way :gonk:
If only that was true. My gf can literally run circles around me in an argument. She is especially skilled at baiting me and then taking me down with my own logic and understandings. Lol it is quite annoying to have my tactics thrown right back at me. (She is also majoring in Anthropology)

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#70
Old 08-28-2009, 04:36 AM

That makes it all clear enough for me :yes:

And oh hell, I don't think my ego could stand your gf, it barely does against you :headdesk:

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#71
Old 08-28-2009, 05:47 AM

Oh I didn't think you was calling me stupid at all =D I just felt stupid when my head started to hurt as I read all that. It didn't want to process it fully and seriously confused me but made me very curious at the same time. lol I was trying my best and thats what I meant by "we stupid people"

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#72
Old 08-28-2009, 11:57 PM

i'm a lesbian so obviously i don't think it's a sin.

love whoever you want. i hate that people say "it's not about what you are on the outside, it's what's on the inside that counts!" and then they turn around and say relationships should be boy/girl because that's the order of things or whatever it is they have a problem with.

however, i don't like gay pride. i think it's absolutely ridiculous. there's no straight pride, if we're fighting for equality, we are not special enough to have our own groups and all of this attention.

i don't feel special being gay, i just date women. it's a very small portion of my life and i'm not going to wear rainbows all the time and be insulted by all the little things people say about 'fags'. i think if gays didn't try to draw so much attention to themselves, the rest of the world wouldn't be so negative towards them.

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#73
Old 09-03-2009, 05:36 PM

I don't think it's a sin to be gay, and I think that the person in question is born that way. And I thinks it's a big intrusion on their rights when people say they shouldn't be allowed to get married. I myself am a heterosexual and have a lot of friends that are gay and bisexual and they're normal everyday people to me.

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#74
Old 09-03-2009, 06:15 PM

I'm not a particularly religious person, i'm agnostic, I have no idea if God exists or doesn't and i'll only find out when i'm dead so theres no point agonising over it. But if God does exist I would not think being gay would be a sin. Being gay doesn't harm anyone or anything, if that's what makes someone happy then they have the right to persue that lifestyle, after all "you only live once" so you might as well enjoy your time while you have it. I dont think God would punish someone for being something that makes them happy and doesn't hurt anyone else. Also if God makes everyone then surely he/she made people gay and therefore would not think their own creation is a sin right?

I support all sexualities, who your attracted to is no one elses business but your own. Also without homosexuality we would have no yaoi D: (yep yaoi fan girl here :mrgreen:)

Also in the first post it was mentioned how gay marriage has been outlawed in California. Well here in England gay marriage is legal, well its called a 'Civil Partnership' which is basically marriage without getting religion involved I think. If gay marriage has been accepted in England maybe America will come around too?

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#75
Old 09-03-2009, 08:27 PM

Huh. It seems to me the US could take some pointers from England. It's getting harder and harder to find states in the US that are okay with homosexual marriages. I don't see what the big problem with it is!

 



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