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MollyJean
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#101
Old 09-21-2009, 05:13 PM

@reddeath26: Interesting. But way too long winded. It's going to take me days to reply to ALL of it, so I'm not going to bother.

I'll just point out that you are working on a social perceptions of gender.. and ignoring the scientific data. Which, by the way, indicates there are more then 50 different genders, not just 3. :)

Will try again later after I go out, buy a few gallons of coffee and drink it.

marissa12345
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#102
Old 09-21-2009, 07:32 PM

i think being gay is a sin. i also think when you guys use parts in the bible like so and so should be stoned to death because so and so. is just immature to even bring up that topic. that stuff was apart of history and thyere culture. my back up on this is that the 10 conmandments say dont murder. christains follow the basic things. when the bible said stuff about gays i doubt the bible says anything about killing them. therefore we follow what it says. and its just unatrual.

Philomel
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#103
Old 09-21-2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by marissa12345 View Post
i think being gay is a sin. i also think when you guys use parts in the bible like so and so should be stoned to death because so and so. is just immature to even bring up that topic. that stuff was apart of history and thyere culture. my back up on this is that the 10 conmandments say dont murder. christains follow the basic things. when the bible said stuff about gays i doubt the bible says anything about killing them. therefore we follow what it says. and its just unatrual.
Then you obviously haven't read your own book.

It says quite specifically that the group that you people have decided are homosexuals (when in fact it merely says "effeminate men") are to be executed. Of course, it also says that unruly children who do not obey every commandment by made by their parents are to be taken to the city gates and publically executed, and if the parents refuse, they are to be executed alongside their children.

I think you need to stop "thinking" and learn what the hell you're talking about before you tick a bunch of your fellow Christians off by lying about their holy book.

Kah Hilzin-Ec
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#104
Old 09-21-2009, 09:22 PM

@reddeath: I won't complicate myself much. I believe gender to be the tag given to you according to the sexual organ/s you were born with, and sexual identity to be the tag given to you depending on your gender and sexual likes.

Yes, I'm humpty dumpty, so shhh. I make it mean what I mean it to be.

So, regardless of what cultural background you come from, it's not allowed just because of the implication of a couple who share the same kind of sexual organs. Not really sexual identity - that's just used to cover the real phobia and tag it at the same time, stereotypizing anyone who doesn't follow what seems to be normal.

Or at least that's the impression that seems most logical, in my opinion.

reddeath26
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#105
Old 09-21-2009, 10:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJean View Post
@reddeath26: Interesting. But way too long winded. It's going to take me days to reply to ALL of it, so I'm not going to bother.
Haha, thank you. I did cut quite a few corners in my post, as it took me around 2 hours or so to make that post. A fair amount of editing was involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJean View Post
I'll just point out that you are working on a social perceptions of gender.. and ignoring the scientific data. Which, by the way, indicates there are more then 50 different genders, not just 3. :)
Although my point is that Gender is a socially defined concept and depending on which culture you happen to belong to, your understandings of it will change. Not only does this apply to the gender roles and boundaries (if they exist, to what extent etc) but also to how many there are in society. Either way this point was to question the notion of there only being two genders which are clearly distinct, as often expressed by many people.

Although I was curious as to whether you were referring to sexuality when you said gender. As this would make your 3 vs 50 comment make more sense. If so then I would like to assert that I was not arguing there are 3 sexualities. But rather I was arguing against this view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyJean View Post
Will try again later after I go out, buy a few gallons of coffee and drink it.
Haha, coffee is always good. :P

@Kah Hilzin-Ec-
Although even understandings of our bodies will differ from culture to culture. So it is not so simple as each culture defining the male and female body as being opposites. Indeed in the past in 'Western culture' they were simply seen as variations. Not only that but understandings of the body can only be relevant if the deem it so. Indeed several cultures do not even make such distinctions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec
So, regardless of what cultural background you come from, it's not allowed just because of the implication of a couple who share the same kind of sexual organs. Not really sexual identity - that's just used to cover the real phobia and tag it at the same time, stereotypizing anyone who doesn't follow what seems to be normal.
I would largely agree with this assertion. While I was commenting on 'nature', I think it is equally applicable to how sexual identities are used. Indeed it is by appealing to the 'nature' argument that specific groups in society exercise their dominance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reddeath26
Here I will propose that such a term is not value free, but is rather is a highly politically charged term. Which for many carries the dual purpose of reinforcing our cultural understandings of gender and ensuring that heterosexuals enjoy the spot light.

Kah Hilzin-Ec
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#106
Old 09-22-2009, 01:39 AM

I don't deem woman and man as oppossites, just physically complementery :angel:

The problem is that people aren't making terms especific. Gender and sexual identity seems to be used as synonyms, and hell, maybe they are. Which then would leave me at this: if gender is the same as sexual identity, then what word defines the set of reproductory organs you were born with? It would leave me with no politically-correct terms! D:

But seriously, can't they see how ridiculous it is to tell you who to have sex with and how to do it? I certainly haven't found anyone telling me anal is horrible and as such it should become a forbidden practice. Masses can be vocal about issues that shouldn't even be of their interest :lol:

Dystopia
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#107
Old 09-23-2009, 06:19 AM

owo When you think about it, there's a lot of aspects of your life that politics will control.

But I put my foot down when it comes to my sex life. >>;

Majoron
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#108
Old 09-23-2009, 09:42 AM

The bible also says that besides the prime sins, all can and will be forgiven with becoming a Christian, so if it were a sin, and the religious oxymoronic fanatics would argue that point, then cut your losses and go to church. My brother's gay, I don't believe it's a sin at all. It's something certainly beyond your choice so however could it be a sin? How can something beyond your control and not your choice be considered a sin? (Though speaking of gay as a choice, am I the only one noticing the gay fad going around in the schools where everyone's bi for like a week and then straight again?) But seriously, if that's how it works, then I guess I'm going to hell because Hitler was a douche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
I don't deem woman and man as oppossites, just physically complementery :angel:

The problem is that people aren't making terms especific. Gender and sexual identity seems to be used as synonyms, and hell, maybe they are. Which then would leave me at this: if gender is the same as sexual identity, then what word defines the set of reproductory organs you were born with? It would leave me with no politically-correct terms! D:

But seriously, can't they see how ridiculous it is to tell you who to have sex with and how to do it? I certainly haven't found anyone telling me anal is horrible and as such it should become a forbidden practice. Masses can be vocal about issues that shouldn't even be of their interest :lol:
Sorry about the double post but I commend you. You're great! :D

Last edited by Sally Sinema; 09-23-2009 at 09:33 PM.. Reason: double posted

Dest1218
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#109
Old 09-24-2009, 10:47 PM

The bible says god loves and treasures all of us so i doubt he is judging us on who we like. I'm not gay but i do support those people and whether people choose to be gay or happen to be born that way it's still a part of them that they probably can't just turn off.

One-hearted-vampiric
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#110
Old 09-25-2009, 01:04 PM

i don't see what the problem is with them ... they did nothing wrong to harm anyone and i don't see way people are making fun at them and killing because they are who they are and what they do ... they are people and they are one of us and if you don't like ...WELL GET LOST!!! ... i for one support them because they are not guilty of what-ever you think they did ... and this is something else i don't get .... "THE BIBLE" ... it a oxymoron ... they preach not to hate in the bible and say it is a SIN ... and at the same time they are say gayness is immoral and god hates them ... now you see what i see and i don't believe in god and i am not criticizing people for WHO THEY ARE!!! ...

blackpearlphan
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#111
Old 09-25-2009, 02:52 PM

As long as you love a person, and I mean really love them, should it should not matter what sex or gender (and yes those are two separate things-people need to start separating them) they are. And for anyone who quotes the Bible, it was written by men not by God (it was 'divine inspiration').

reddeath26
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#112
Old 09-26-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
I don't deem woman and man as oppossites, just physically complementery :angel:

:
Although even then this is dependent on defining the human body in a specific way. To assume that the human body can only be understood in a very specific way, is somewhat short sighted. As I mentioned in my previous posts, not all peoples understand our bodies in the same way. But rather there are numerous different ways of interpreting our bodies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
The problem is that people aren't making terms especific. Gender and sexual identity seems to be used as synonyms, and hell, maybe they are.
I would not go so far as asserting that. However understandings of sexual identity are very heavily dependent on having certain understandings of Gender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
Which then would leave me at this: if gender is the same as sexual identity, then what word defines the set of reproductory organs you were born with? It would leave me with no politically-correct terms! D:
I think you are referring to a persons sex? Although as I mentioned in my first point here, understandings of the human body are not constant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kah Hilzin-Ec View Post
But seriously, can't they see how ridiculous it is to tell you who to have sex with and how to do it? I certainly haven't found anyone telling me anal is horrible and as such it should become a forbidden practice. Masses can be vocal about issues that shouldn't even be of their interest :lol
A friend of mine likes to comment on how amusing it is that this supposed omnipotent being, would care so much about our sex lifes. Although I certainly agree with you that it is terrible that social constructions continue to be the reasoning for certain groups of society to be oppressed and marginalized. We can see this in numerous areas ranging from Gender and sexuality to race. Although as my lecturer asserted while these groups do not not exist, classifications do. (paraphrased, not quoted)

Last edited by reddeath26; 09-26-2009 at 12:50 AM.. Reason: Fixed the colour of their font

neko xoxox
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#113
Old 09-26-2009, 01:00 AM

theres nothing wrong with it, i'm straight and live in a pretty homophobic area but i dont thinks theres anything wrong with it, and i don't think your born straight or gay because when your little you really don't care about gender :P

XxPapaRoachxX
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#114
Old 09-26-2009, 06:20 PM

I think if you want ot be gay that you should go for it. You only have one life to live and if you feel attracted to the same sex and can handle a gay relationship then go for it! You should be happy with who you choose.

Kah Hilzin-Ec
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#115
Old 09-26-2009, 08:12 PM

Oh you call it "sex"? My english teachers have been lying to me this long...? ;__;

Either way, I hope you understood what I meant with my reasoning. I'm taking just these two because one can't produce sperm and the other can't produce ova. See? Mutually exclussive. The only gray area would be hermaphrodites. Now now, if you actually gave me an example about how can these other cultures find more than that, it could help me understand what you're trying to say.

shadow never seen
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#116
Old 09-27-2009, 05:05 AM

I have the same opinion on the matter. I don't think it matters what gender you are, as long as you're happy. All relationships have problems and they have to put up with more than the average man/woman couple. Marriage is just that, it's a joining of two people's who want to share their lives together. Religion really shouldn't be brought into it and it sickens me how people think that their views are always right while others are wrong. Ignorant, selfish people in my opinion.

I heard about a college guy who was ganged up on and beaten almost to death by a group of redneck boys, then thrown into a barbed wire fence where he hung till the next day. All I could think about when I first heard this (and I still feel this way) is 'I would have killed them to protect the guy'. no one deserves something like that when their only offence is liking someone of the same gender.

I say let them have their man/woman and eat them too!! (ok, kinda wrong. but funny.)

One-hearted-vampiric
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#117
Old 09-29-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackpearlphan View Post
As long as you love a person, and I mean really love them, should it should not matter what sex or gender (and yes those are two separate things-people need to start separating them) they are. And for anyone who quotes the Bible, it was written by men not by God (it was 'divine inspiration').
I totally agree that the bible was created by man not your god...

Philomel
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#118
Old 09-29-2009, 02:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow never seen View Post
I heard about a college guy who was ganged up on and beaten almost to death by a group of redneck boys, then thrown into a barbed wire fence where he hung till the next day. All I could think about when I first heard this (and I still feel this way) is 'I would have killed them to protect the guy'. no one deserves something like that when their only offence is liking someone of the same gender.
His name was Matthew Shepard and he was beaten to death. He died a few days later, true, but he died thanks to wounds inflicted on him during the beating.

What...almost amuses me about that case is those bastards, who went to a gay bar and made Shepard believe they were interested in him, tried to use the 'gay panic' defense.

Quote:
I say let them have their man/woman and eat them too!! (ok, kinda wrong. but funny.)
:shock:

...Do they come with icing or do we have to add that ourselves?

mad hatter's tea party
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#119
Old 09-29-2009, 04:31 PM

I'm really interested in this, and I've read some really interesting theories on the subject. The general consensus is that it's not as simple as being a 'gay gene' and in fact in psychology nothing is to do with purely genetics, it's the way our genes interact with our environment. For example, there are lots of very homophobic men who get aroused by watching gay porn. It's suggested this is because their homophobia has come about as a result of repressing their sexuality, due to cultural predjudice.

It's certainly not a simple choice. I mean, all the straight people here didn't "choose" to be straight.

However, one of the most popular theories at the moment is that the genetic factor that causes homosexuality in men is actually inherited on the FEMALE side of the family, and it's because they don't provide their male babies with enough testosterone in the womb, so the brain develops differently, making it different to male brains (brain scans have shown this to be the case, although it's important to point out that the 'gay' brain is also different to lesbian and female brains).

This is also influenced by how many older brothers and sisters you have, for example, lesbians are believed to recieve too much testosterone in the womb, possibly as a result of there being left over hormones from an older brother, and this is much rarer.

But a lot of this is still only speculation.

I'm not religious, so I can't really coment on gayness being a sin, but I think you shouldn't judge people based on their lifestyle choices. I also believe gay couples should have the right to common law/civil marriage, so they have the same rights, and this way religion isn't involved.

Philomel
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#120
Old 09-29-2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mad hatter's tea party View Post
However, one of the most popular theories at the moment is that the genetic factor that causes homosexuality in men is actually inherited on the FEMALE side of the family, and it's because they don't provide their male babies with enough testosterone in the womb, so the brain develops differently, making it different to male brains (brain scans have shown this to be the case, although it's important to point out that the 'gay' brain is also different to lesbian and female brains).

This is also influenced by how many older brothers and sisters you have, for example, lesbians are believed to recieve too much testosterone in the womb, possibly as a result of there being left over hormones from an older brother, and this is much rarer.

But a lot of this is still only speculation.
Would you happen to have any sources for any of this? I was under the impression that, while an excess of testosterone or estrogen in the womb manifested itself in a lot of ways (men being more "effeminate", women being more masculine, even a difference from the norm in physical appearance, such as finger length), testerone had not been linked to homosexuality. You might have heard something I haven't, though, so if you could link me to a study or something I'd be much obliged. :heart:

Oh, and on the first bit, while it would be rather poetic justice if that were the case, they've pretty much proven that there's no real proveable link between suppressed homosexuality and homophobia. In the study that people usually reference, a large percentage of self-proclaimed homophobes who claimed to be straight did get turned on by watching gay porn, however a near-equal percentage of the straight, non-homophobic group did as well. So, for the sake of intellectual honesty, please stop saying this, people >.<

reddeath26
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#121
Old 09-30-2009, 01:00 PM

I have recently come across some rather compelling evidence, as to why Gay marriage should be illegal. It comes in the form of another potential proposition for California, submitted by John Marcotte. He believes that proposition 8 went a long way in protecting the sanctity of marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Marcotte
Proposition 8 tried to make traditional marriage safer by making sure that Adam Lambert and Ryan Seacrest can’t profess their eternal love to one another. Prop 8 backers recognized that gay marriage was just the beginning of a very slippery slope. Next people would be marrying goats, trees and particularly stylish armchairs.
He is not however a Catholic who simply decides what part of the bible he will and won't follow. Rather he is urging California to further safe marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Marcotte
But Prop 8 only attacked the problem from the edges. I’m going after the heart of the matter. That’s why I drafted the 2010 California Protection of Marriage Act to ban divorce in the state of California. If you can’t get divorced, you can’t destroy traditional marriage.
He also demonstrates why banning gay marriage has never been about stealing rights, but rather about protecting marriage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Marcotte
People who supported Prop 8 weren't trying to take rights away from gays, they just wanted to protect traditional marriage. That's why I'm confident that they will support this initiative, even though this time it will be their rights that are diminished. To not support it would be hypocritical.
Finally he asks us to think of the children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Marcotte
I’m Catholic. My faith teaches me that divorce is a sin. I don’t believe that the government should be indoctrinating our children — telling them that divorce is “cool” or “legally permissible.” That type of moral decision should be taught within the confines of the family. It is not the government’s job to teach our children what to think about the morality of divorce.

When my child read that Ronald Reagan had gotten a divorce in his history textbook, he cried for a week. Shame on you, public school system! It’s a parent’s responsibility to teach their child about reality — not the state’s.
More information on his campaign can be found here. There are also some interesting interviews and such on his Press page.

In all serious I think this quite brilliantly captures the sheer silliness behind the proposition 8 drive. As this is a genuine proposition attempt, if it goes ahead it will be really interesting to see how the vote goes when the heterosexuals suddenly find themselves with their rights on the line.

Last edited by reddeath26; 09-30-2009 at 03:43 PM..

Philomel
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#122
Old 09-30-2009, 01:42 PM

This guy is actually serious? What exactly does he expect schools to teach if not reality? Also, he has a really messed-up kid if he cries over someone he doesn't know and has never met getting a divorce.

That aside, thank you for posting this. I too would like very much to see how heterosexuals react to this. I know there have been polls taken showing that a large percentage of Americans believe divorce should be illegal, but those are anonymous polls. I would be interested in seeing whether or not they'll actually vote for taking away their own rights.

fuyumi_saito
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#123
Old 09-30-2009, 03:36 PM

@Reddeath
You're awesome for finding that XD

reddeath26
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#124
Old 09-30-2009, 03:49 PM

@Philomel-
I quite strongly believe that he is doing this to make fun of the logic (or lack thereof) behind proposition 8.

@fuyumi_saito-
I was quite amused when I found it as well. I happened to stumble across it while catching up on my youtube subscriptions. Although I can't help but feel something is missing still. Hmmm people like charts, so maybe this is a good time to share one which I found.



Source

Philomel
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#125
Old 09-30-2009, 11:00 PM

Lmao. That's amazing. :heart:

I really haven't been able to understand why people are freaking the hell out over the idea of gays marrying. Like, I could understand it if they were going to be forced to marry someone of the same gender, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

 



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