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Lady_Megami
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#1
Old 11-06-2009, 12:25 AM

This week in my Criminology class we are reading about trait theories, mainly that a criminal is bad because it is in their blood. This is just a theory, there are others like this one. Like it's environmental, it is learned..things like those. This made me wonder something.

People already do genetic testing to determine if there are any flaws in their babies genetics, you know down syndrome, spinal bifida, and other genetic defects. Heck, there are tests to determine the sex of your baby. If criminal behavior is genetic, what would happen if the government started offering this as a routine test for parents to take? To determine the prospects of them turning into a murder, rapist, etc. Would you take this test?

What doe you think makes a person do bad things? Because they want to, because it is in their genes? Is it the way they where raised?

Last edited by Lady_Megami; 11-06-2009 at 04:14 PM.. Reason: Its stepping away from genetic testing to other criminal behavior.

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#2
Old 11-06-2009, 12:34 AM

I think that it's silly to think that criminals have it genetic imprinted into them. Surely, some may be more aggressive or impulsive, but you can be both and not be a criminal. Perhaps if the person has some sort of mental issue like paranoid schizophrenia, it is much easier to bring on dangerous behavior, but if a person is in good standing or their ailments are treated properly, then their crime is on their free will.

Anyway, I think such a thing would be permissible to use for people with extreme, physical ailments, but to go in and change a person's personality is, well, wrong. Would it permissible to demolish their "gay" gene, if they had one? To change their skin color, eye color, hair color? Would it be permissible to change a person's ethnicity if the parent wanted to?

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#3
Old 11-06-2009, 01:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Anyway, I think such a thing would be permissible to use for people with extreme, physical ailments, but to go in and change a person's personality is, well, wrong. Would it permissible to demolish their "gay" gene, if they had one? To change their skin color, eye color, hair color? Would it be permissible to change a person's ethnicity if the parent wanted to?
That was my view point, to pre-judge a person before they are even born and change something that has not taken root is to destroy humanity as we know it. I read in a magazine a while back about fertility doctors who can make you a child who is male or female, blue or brown eyes, and such forth. And people are actually paying for this to take place! It is sickening.

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#4
Old 11-06-2009, 02:58 AM

This reminds me of the movie Minority Report a bit. While it may not have dealt with human DNA composition to determine the outcome of the citizens' lives, it did perform a similar type judgment of people based upon the ability of foresight. I don't think you can classify a person or lock in their destiny based upon these sorts of discoveries especially when the future is such a torrential turning of the tides. No one really has any idea what the future will hold for someone regardless of such evidence so long as humans possess free will.

As for changing the genetic structure of an unborn child, I have mixed feelings on the subject. While on the one hand I find it a arrogant to think that you should have the power to decide how to mold your child in a cosmetic fashion or that it's even right to begin with. I also think, though, that this process could be used to help prevent diseases and abnormalities at their very core before they have a chance to manifest in the child. For instance if you know your family was predisposed to having diabetes or a cleft mouth perhaps this could be prevented.

This also brings me to another conflict with the idea. Once this sort of thing becomes commonplace and the proverbial DNA pot gets stirred TOO much, who's to say you won't get the blond hair and blue eyes you wanted....but the child comes out missing an arm. When these sorts of practices become the norm accidents are bound to happen.

I personally would rather leave what's coming to chance and see what happens. There's very little in this world that cannot be overcome.

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#5
Old 11-06-2009, 03:40 AM

I don't really care, to be honest. If a parent is willing to pay a fertility specialist tens of thousands of dollars to increase the odds of getting a kid more like the one they want, it doesn't really seem like it's any of my business. I would hope that every parent would love their child regardless, but honestly, I don't think anyone can fairly make judgments about the sort of people who would choose this.

When it comes to a predisposition to crime, in particular, the case could be made that the parents just want the best possible life for their child, and that sort of life doesn't include jail time.

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#6
Old 11-06-2009, 03:48 AM

I believe genes tell us a lot, especially about our physical features, but I don't believe they can tell the future. No amount of genetic code can describe a persons life in whole. You can make assumptions based on the code (such as the possibility that they may be picked on for having red hair, which may create some form of complex in the child that could lead to mild or severe depression in his/her adulthood), but you can't tell me that someone is going to rob a bank in a couple of decades. Genes don't replace life experience, they just set physical/mental limits on how you react to things.

If you've ever played Metal Gear Solid: Solid Snake, they talk about it a bit in the game, which heavily revolves around gene manipulation and cloning throughout the story. One of the things a doctor says is: "You can't defy your genes." Whether that's true or not, I believe, still remains to be seen...

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#7
Old 11-06-2009, 04:06 AM

I don't think that being a criminal has anything to do with your genetics; it's about your upbringing and temperament, both of which can be affected by your environment, the people you live around, the people you socialize with, etc. There are just way too many factors to try and pin down one thing that makes people evil. Everyone has their own reasons, and being a criminal doesn't automatically make you evil. Recently in a Florida prison, an inmate attacked a guard, putting him into a rear naked chokehold, strangling him. The guard would have died from that move, but four other inmates rushed over and saved him, pulling the other man off of him. One inmate even grabbed the guard's radio and called "Emergency! Emergency!" to alert the other guards and get help. At least one of those guys was charged with murder, one with breaking and entering, etc. However, that day, they chose to be heroes.

It's books like "Alraune" that perpetuate the myth that genetics determine every single thing about a person. Genotype, while it has a huge effect on phenotype, doesn't set your fate in stone. Although it may seem unrelated, hydrangea flowers turn blue in acidic soil and pink in basic soil. It proves that the environment has a huge impact on any organism. So if the government started doing testing like that...I have no idea what would happen! Surely many misdiagnoses. I mean, we don't even completely understand the complex genetic workings of very simple traits like eye colour or birth canal diameter. How do people expect to understand the human heart and mind with genetics if they can't even understand the physiology?

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#8
Old 11-06-2009, 09:57 AM

Imuto chan is correct.


If I was brought up with a loving and supportive family, the chances of me doing drugs or breaking the law is very slim.

If I was brought up with abuse and neglect apparant in my life, the chances of me doing drugs or breaking the law increases.

Lady_Megami
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#9
Old 11-06-2009, 04:13 PM

That's the point guys, they are looking into all types of things that they can link to criminal behavior. It all goes back to the "nurture vs nature".

They also say what you eat can control your behavior, referring to the twinkie defense where a guy in CA committed murder then blamed the sugary substance made him crazy. The jury actually bought the evidence and he got a lesser sentence.

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#10
Old 11-06-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_Megami View Post
They also say what you eat can control your behavior, referring to the twinkie defense where a guy in CA committed murder then blamed the sugary substance made him crazy. The jury actually bought the evidence and he got a lesser sentence.
Actually, that's not quite true. The "Twinkie defense" refers to the trial of the man who murdered Harvey Milk. During the trial, a psychologist testified that the defendant was extremely depressed at the time, and used his switch from an extremely healthy diet to one consisting largely of junkfood (he gave Twinkies as an example) as evidence to support this, since one of the symptoms of depression is a sudden change in diet. Because depression can seriously affect one's mind, to the point where they may do things they would otherwise never even consider, the court found that he was not entirely responsible for his actions and gave him a lesser sentence. The newspapers, who wanted to capitalize on the public's outrage at Milk's murder, printed that his diet of Twinkies had allowed him to get away with murder, and eventually the truth was forgotten. Snopes actually has an article on it, if you're interested :)

As for the topic, I believe there are some things that you are born with that make you more or less likely to commit certain types of crimes (that we are primates makes us more violent than many other mammals, for instance). However, I wouldn't go so far as to say criminals are "born". As such, I wouldn't be for testing embryos to see whether or not they have these "markers". It doesn't seem to really have any positives, and as for negatives, a woman who wanted the pregnancy might feel pressured to abort it if the doctor told her she was carrying a possible future Dahmer, and if the pregnancy wasn't terminated, the parents would undoubtedly treat the child differently than they would a "normal" one, perhaps even promoting harmful behaviors and creating a future menace to society unintentionally.

Last edited by Philomel; 11-06-2009 at 07:10 PM..

Lady_Megami
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#11
Old 11-06-2009, 11:45 PM

Philomel, how do you think society should treat "violent-proned" children? Say you have a child who has shown violence streaks in the past, either by hurting/killing a neighborhood animal or other worse acts?

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#12
Old 11-07-2009, 12:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_Megami View Post
Philomel, how do you think society should treat "violent-proned" children? Say you have a child who has shown violence streaks in the past, either by hurting/killing a neighborhood animal or other worse acts?
You know, I've thought about this a lot in the past. Part of me wants to have a "strikes" system set up, and after so many offences, the child is taken away from the parents to live for awhile away from unhelpful influences. But, I realize that that's not humane, so that is not an option. The best thing would probably be to have mandatory psychological evaluations and perhaps classes to teach children to deal with violent urges they have in ways that aren't so destructive for those who are intentionally cruel.

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#13
Old 11-07-2009, 01:50 AM

There are a lot of things that make people do bad things. I think that it all depends on the person and how they are like. But one thing that I know that happens to a lot of people, is - that in their childhood, they may of been abused, and it makes them hate a lot of people, and act out. Whether for attention or something else. I think that genes are a possible explanation, but cannot be proven right for all cases. There are some people that are just depressed, and do things they shouldn't. There are others who have some kind of symptom or something that makes it so they cannot think logically. But there are some people who like the adrenaline of doing something bad, and they keep doing it. Other people can have a completely sick and twisted mind. And there are some kids who have lead decent lives, and do something like, tormenting poor animals, and they move up to harming people. Which could be caused from an abusive life, or something else. All in all, it depends on the person and what has happened in their lives.

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#14
Old 11-08-2009, 09:31 PM

"Bad" is really subjective.

Every situation is different. You don't know if something would cause you to break the law. There is no absolute good or bad. People have laws and rules in place to make it easier, so people can live together peacefully. There is no really meaning behind "good" or "bad" otherwise, and there is no way that you can have a gene for something that is interpretive.

Crimes are committed for all different reasons. Perhaps the person thought it was the right thing to do. Like the woman who was arrested for putting quarters into other people's expired parking meters. She was just trying to help them, but that's a crime.

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#15
Old 11-13-2009, 04:19 AM

I think a criminal trait is adapted more by environment - where they were raised, who they were raised by, the people around them- instead of genetics.

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#16
Old 11-15-2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_Megami View Post
This week in my Criminology class we are reading about trait theories, mainly that a criminal is bad because it is in their blood. This is just a theory, there are others like this one. Like it's environmental, it is learned..things like those. This made me wonder something.

People already do genetic testing to determine if there are any flaws in their babies genetics, you know down syndrome, spinal bifida, and other genetic defects. Heck, there are tests to determine the sex of your baby. If criminal behavior is genetic, what would happen if the government started offering this as a routine test for parents to take? To determine the prospects of them turning into a murder, rapist, etc. Would you take this test?

What doe you think makes a person do bad things? Because they want to, because it is in their genes? Is it the way they where raised?
what really makes people believe that someone is born a criminal?Yeah,that might have some certain features that make them look like criminals,but they could be the next President.It's like police brutality.Some police will arrest someone just because they have a face of a criminal and thier father/mother did a crime.SO WHAT?! Just cause a person's ancestor did it doesn't mean they will do the same!

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#17
Old 11-16-2009, 12:27 AM

I think alot of it is mental issues. Stuff they were born with. You know those mental diseases that are so hard to diagnose and then treat?

On the other hand, some people are just stupid and are doing it for the attention.

whitebeast
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#18
Old 11-16-2009, 03:33 AM

Coolies. :D It's a nature vs. nurture debate.

In my opinion? It's both.

If you're born with genetic tendencies, but they're not honed, then likely you won't give in to them. Unlike before that genes have the last say, that's not always the case anymore.

But if they're honed by the environment you're in, regardless if you have the traits or not, YOU WILL END UP DOING BAD. : /

But that aside? What else makes people do bad?

I honestly believe it's because of their inclination towards self centeredness.

That's environmentally honed though.

People want to have the cake and eat it. Even if it's not their own.

So they go through the extra judicial means of acquisition and hope to get away with it.

That's why we have liars, thieves, rapists and all that.

All because they want to get cake and eat it, without thinking of the consequences that could be dirty. : /

Lady_Megami
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#19
Old 11-16-2009, 04:40 AM

Many other psychologists believe that criminal behavior is learned. For instance, a child raised in a violent household is more likely to grow up violent themselves. Parents teach their children many things, how to read, write, feed themselves. Violent behavior really isn't much difference.

Going past parents, if a child was to hang around other children who are violent prone, or act up in criminal ways, do you think that they are more likely to join in these delinquent behaviors?

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#20
Old 11-16-2009, 09:58 AM

Yes they would be prone as well.

The element of peer pressure should NEVER be underestimated.

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#21
Old 11-16-2009, 10:07 AM

I've taken several classes for criminal justice; and I have to say this one thing. It's NOT always the way people are brought up, it's not always because people are brought up in crappy situations. I can say for sure that there are criminals that have never been abused, never been treated badly in their childhood... And have become criminals themselves. This can mean anything from a murderer to that of white collar crime. A lot of people seem to forget about white collar crime as well when they say what makes people do bad things.

Was a business man who embezzled treated badly when he was a child? Somehow I doubt that. I think maybe he got power hungry and decided to take the wrong steps. The same could be said for those who are 'violent' criminals. Like I've said it's not just how people are raised. In fact there are people who are raised in bad situations who happen to become police officers or other people who help other individuals based upon their bad situation at home or in their neighborhood.

I think that it does depend on various situations. Now I'm not saying that I don't think that environment and how people are treated as children doesn't effect some individuals.

With this in mind, I'd suggest doing a bit of research on Criminology; the most boring class I have EVER taken; however it is filled with statistics and various other factors that explain why people behave in the manner they do. In fact Criminology is the study of criminal behavior... And WHY people act the manner that they do.

I wish I had the text book with me so I could back up some of my points, however it's something to look into. It's not always the situation you're raised in... The media plays a big role in this; as my text has said. Media and other things can also effect individuals. There's a lot more than just how people are raised.

And Lalila; Please do not use abuse in such a way. In fact that's subjective- where are your statistics to back that up? A LOT of people who are abused do NOT go on murderous tirades.

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#22
Old 11-16-2009, 11:14 AM

For short, there are many things that can possible do the trick.

Or make people do bad for that matter.

And it's never a defined/categorical thing since it's a case to case basis.

Lady_Megami
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#23
Old 11-16-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxberry View Post
I've taken several classes for criminal justice; and I have to say this one thing. It's NOT always the way people are brought up, it's not always because people are brought up in crappy situations. I can say for sure that there are criminals that have never been abused, never been treated badly in their childhood... And have become criminals themselves. This can mean anything from a murderer to that of white collar crime. A lot of people seem to forget about white collar crime as well when they say what makes people do bad things.
First off, instead of insulting people's inelegance you should join in with a round discussion. Of COURSE not every criminal is brought up in an abusive home. Some criminals come from loving homes. Everyone knows that. Don't insult other posters because of what they put. You have to keep in mind that not everyone here is out of school yet or in collage.


Dahmer, himself, came from a normal childhood.

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#24
Old 11-16-2009, 03:43 PM

I think 'bad' is something we learn and something we turn to in moments of severe need. I have a hard time believing anyone could be born bad or evil, that's not saying you can't be a mean little shit while you're a kid, but I think that's something you learn too.

Anyway..

The need to provide ( stealing ), the need to belong ( gang activity ), the need to have control over ( rape ) and the need to end what they see as their own unfortunate circumstances ( murder ). That's how I see it. It's all very simplified, but when it comes right down to it, how else would you view things actions without any 'bad' bias?


People are known to turn to desperate measures for even the smallest of things, simply because they felt that was their only way to get things done. I feel like crime, every day crime ( not serial cases ) is very similar.

Last edited by Lore; 11-16-2009 at 08:13 PM..

Lady_Megami
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#25
Old 11-16-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lore View Post
The need to provide ( stealing ), the need to belong ( gang activity )
These are good examples. There was a case of a woman who created "Ghost employees" so that she could pay off her outrageous medical bills. Of course she was caught. Another example would be of a father who lost his job, he would steal from convience stores to provide milk and bread for his family.

 


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