Originally Posted by SugarRos

I'm not one to really get into these kinds of debates, but I can't help but to ask why a child is considered a punishment to a woman who doesn't want one instead of simply a responsibility. Accidentally getting pregnant and being forced to birth the child because a woman or man simply didn't use birth control isn't a punishment. It's a responsibility.

You're right that a pregnancy should never be a punishment, so why is it looked on like one? The child is there not to punish the mother, but because of a choice the mother made in birth control.

This, of course, does not apply to accidents or rape I know. But you have to admit that many women misuse the right of abortion as birth control. I know two people that have done so, and it's simply sicking.

Again, I'm going to state that NOT ALL WOMEN USE ABORTION AS A BIRTH CONTROL, so please don't jump all over me.

I think the key word there is FORCE.

Accidentally getting pregnant and being forced to birth the child because a woman or man simply didn't use birth control isn't a punishment.

If you don't want to do something and someone FORCES you to, it does feel like a punishment.

Also, you need to keep in mind the negative effects of, say, a rape victim gets pregnant. She's not even an adult yet, still has her whole life ahead of her, and she gets pregnant from something she has no control over. Having a baby is not a punishment, but if someone is in this circumstance or something similar, do you think they should throw everything away for something that shouldn't have happened?

Now before Kris jumps all over me, I am pro-choice, but I personally would never abort if I got pregnant (planned or not). I'm just putting that little example into context because some people, like the kind I told of, possibly would view that kind of pregnancy as punishment.

I will also note that I agree with everyone else saying that those who simply chose to have unprotected sex or who COULD HAVE done something about it, have no right to complain when they get preggo. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by demoscout

Also, you need to keep in mind the negative effects of, say, a rape victim gets pregnant. She's not even an adult yet, still has her whole life ahead of her, and she gets pregnant from something she has no control over. Having a baby is not a punishment, but if someone is in this circumstance or something similar, do you think they should throw everything away for something that shouldn't have happened?

Now before Kris jumps all over me, I am pro-choice, but I personally would never abort if I got pregnant (planned or not). I'm just putting that little example into context because some people, like the kind I told of, possibly would view that kind of pregnancy as punishment.

I will also note that I agree with everyone else saying that those who simply chose to have unprotected sex or who COULD HAVE done something about it, have no right to complain when they get preggo. Simple as that.

Maybe they shouldn't be saying "Oh woo is me, I got preggers and I didn't wanna" but that doesn't change their right to their own body and it's functions. You don't have to like a person who aborts in that situation, but you really have no right to tell them they can't.

Originally Posted by demoscout

Also, you need to keep in mind the negative effects of, say, a rape victim gets pregnant. She's not even an adult yet, still has her whole life ahead of her, and she gets pregnant from something she has no control over. Having a baby is not a punishment, but if someone is in this circumstance or something similar, do you think they should throw everything away for something that shouldn't have happened?

Now before Kris jumps all over me, I am pro-choice, but I personally would never abort if I got pregnant (planned or not). I'm just putting that little example into context because some people, like the kind I told of, possibly would view that kind of pregnancy as punishment.

I will also note that I agree with everyone else saying that those who simply chose to have unprotected sex or who COULD HAVE done something about it, have no right to complain when they get preggo. Simple as that.

How is that rape victim different from anyone else who gets pregnant? If a girl in high school had sex, whether or not she used birth control, is in the same situation as the rape victim. She is not an adult, she has her whole life ahead of her, and she got pregnant despite the fact she took responsibility to keep that from happening. Do you think she should have to throw everything away? Do you not care in the slightest for her? Does she no longer have bodily rights because she chose to recognize the fact that she does have a sex drive?

Originally Posted by SugarRos

I'm not one to really get into these kinds of debates, but I can't help but to ask why a child is considered a punishment to a woman who doesn't want one instead of simply a responsibility. Accidentally getting pregnant and being forced to birth the child because a woman or man simply didn't use birth control isn't a punishment. It's a responsibility.

You're right that a pregnancy should never be a punishment, so why is it looked on like one? The child is there not to punish the mother, but because of a choice the mother made in birth control.

This, of course, does not apply to accidents or rape I know. But you have to admit that many women misuse the right of abortion as birth control. I know two people that have done so, and it's simply sicking.

Again, I'm going to state that NOT ALL WOMEN USE ABORTION AS A BIRTH CONTROL, so please don't jump all over me.

Having an abortion when you have no means to care for a pregnancy is responsible. Please, remember that that the world does not revolve around you and that just because you don't like something doesn't make it irresponsible.

When you have no regard for the value of a fetus (and you don't care if it's aborted in cases of rape and such), but you want women to "face the consequences" of their actions and you FORCE them to have a child, you are punishing them. I'm not making it a punishment; the pro-lifers are making pregnancy a punishment.

Women do not misuse abortion; they use it when they have a pregnancy which they are not ready for. It is a personal decision. However, you are trying to misuse your legal rights as an adult to force your morality onto people that you don't know and whose abortions will have no effects on your life whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Kris

Having an abortion when you have no means to care for a pregnancy is responsible. Please, remember that that the world does not revolve around you and that just because you don't like something doesn't make it irresponsible.

I find this insulting to me personally, telling me the world doesn't revolve around me. I have in no way brought you into my post and attacked you personally, I'd appreciate it if you showed me the same respect. I respect your views, and don't insult you because of them, please don't insult me. Please, remember that the world does not revolve around you and your view, and just because you disagree with something doesn't give you the right to be insulting.

When you have no regard for the value of a fetus (and you don't care if it's aborted in cases of rape and such), but you want women to "face the consequences" of their actions and you FORCE them to have a child, you are punishing them. I'm not making it a punishment; the pro-lifers are making pregnancy a punishment.

I can understand where you're coming from. I can see your point and I agree with you to some point. But the actions people take make them responsible for the outcome. And when it's misused it's horrible. There NEEDS to be a medium somewhere.

Women do not misuse abortion; they use it when they have a pregnancy which they are not ready for. It is a personal decision. However, you are trying to misuse your legal rights as an adult to force your morality onto people that you don't know and whose abortions will have no effects on your life whatsoever.

This is a blanketed statement and is completely untrue. There are many woman that misuse abortion as a birth control. I lived with one. A young lady who had unprotected sex simply because she didn't like condoms and refused to take a pill/shot/patch. EVERY time she became pregnant (four times!) she got an abortion until finally her family stopped paying for them.

This isn't an isolated incident, either. This happens to many women. And it's simply wrong.

Not all abortion should be outlawed, I completely agree. But the misuse of abortion needs to be stopped. Not only is it morally wrong to be irresponsible and abort the baby simply because you refused to wear a condom or take a pill, over and over and over again, but it does considerable damage to the woman's uterus as well.

I know you're going to disagree, Kris, I just hope your reply leaves me as a person out of it.

I'm going to restrict my debate to this specific point for the moment.

Originally Posted by SugarRos

Not all abortion should be outlawed, I completely agree. But the misuse of abortion needs to be stopped. Not only is it morally wrong to be irresponsible and abort the baby simply because you refused to wear a condom or take a pill, over and over and over again, but it does considerable damage to the woman's uterus as well.
.

Alright let's break this down.

What is the misuse of Abortion? I don't really see how anyone can decided what is and isn't a misuse of abortion. After all, no matter what the reasons behind the choice, the procedure itself always has the same result. The removal of an unwanted fetus. I'll stress this again.. the fetus is unwanted. The person making that choice, for whatever reason, had decided they do not want to carry the fetus. So at what point is it considered misuse? 5? 10 abortions? I suppose that using someone else's money to get the abortions is misuse, but not of the procedure, of another person's money. Which reminds me, an abortion can cost a lot, $400 or more. If the woman is paying for it, the doctors are getting paid and the only person seriously effected is the woman, who is getting abused in the process? What is being misused? And how do you tell a woman that she's misused the system? And that also calls to question how you tell a woman that she can't get a procedure that has no risk for anyone but herself and the fetus, which, would be terminated through the procedure.

Why is abortion morally wrong or irresponsible? This one is interesting. This one would take a LONG time to discuss, so let's try to keep it simple; Everyone has different morals. A soldier doesn't have the same morals as a nun and I don't have the same morals as you. Religion, upbringing and community involvement in development play a part, but the bottom line is, what might feel morally wrong for you might not be for someone else. How do you tell a woman that she should feel morally ashamed of herself for considering an abortion if she doesn't? And how do you effect changes in basic law based on these morals? And responsibility? Why is it irresponsible to abort a fetus? It seems just the opposit. Abortion is asuming responsiblity for your actions. Why would the 5th or 7th or 10th abortion be any different? It might not be the choice you would make, to have a 5th abortion, but it's still taking responsibility.

As for the woman's body.. There is a point where a doctor won't take the risks of preforming an abortion and a woman can legally be turned down. If your friend insists on having so many procedures, she'll likely run into that roadblock at some point.

But I will agree on one point and add another:

A woman should be taking responsibility for her actions in other ways, using protection being one.

An abortion, while it seems to be the easy way out, can be much more of a 'punishment' then keeping a child. The procedure itself and the psychological effects can by serious. (not that either are punishments, just reflecting on the oft used idea of 'punishing' a woman by forcing her to have the baby.)

MollyJean, I love your opinion on abortion, you explain it way better than I ever could x3

Originally Posted by Vompire

MollyJean, I love your opinion on abortion, you explain it way better than I ever could x3

Aww thank you! Would still like to hear you try, though. It's always better to use your own voice if you really care about what's being said.

She is not an adult, she has her whole life ahead of her, and she got pregnant despite the fact she took responsibility to keep that from happening. Do you think she should have to throw everything away? Do you not care in the slightest for her?

In this matter, HER age doesn't mean squat. She made the conscientious decision to have sex and she knew the consequences, she just chose to ignore them. A girl from your example deserves what's coming to her and no, I don't care because of the fact that she was so reckless. If a girl like that wants to dress and act like adults (which almost all high school girls do) then they can take the consequences like adults.

A rape victim, especially a young one, is a different story. I believe that, if they choose to, they have more reason to abort than those who just have unprotected sex and then abort. I'm not saying that there isn't also the adoption option (god i'm good), but it's like I said before, I am for pro-choice but I do believe that some people need to rise up to their problems. (aka the lovely girl you tried to give as an example)

I'm pro-choice.
Why should the government control what you can and can not do with your own body?

I can understand where you're coming from. I can see your point and I agree with you to some point. But the actions people take make them responsible for the outcome. And when it's misused it's horrible. There NEEDS to be a medium somewhere.

Abortion IS taking responsibility for your actions. Like I said: Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean that it's irresponsible. In fact, I think having an abortion is a LOT more responsible than having a baby you don't plan to care for or don't have the means to care for..

This is a blanketed statement and is completely untrue. There are many woman that misuse abortion as a birth control. I lived with one. A young lady who had unprotected sex simply because she didn't like condoms and refused to take a pill/shot/patch. EVERY time she became pregnant (four times!) she got an abortion until finally her family stopped paying for them.

This isn't an isolated incident, either. This happens to many women. And it's simply wrong.

Anecdotes don't mean shit. If you provide statistical proof that people "misuse" abortion, then maybe you'll have a point.

Not all abortion should be outlawed, I completely agree. But the misuse of abortion needs to be stopped. Not only is it morally wrong to be irresponsible and abort the baby simply because you refused to wear a condom or take a pill, over and over and over again, but it does considerable damage to the woman's uterus as well.

I know you're going to disagree, Kris, I just hope your reply leaves me as a person out of it.

Like Molly said, if the woman is in any danger, the clinic has the right to refuse the woman her abortion.

Originally Posted by demoscout

In this matter, HER age doesn't mean squat. She made the conscientious decision to have sex and she knew the consequences, she just chose to ignore them. A girl from your example deserves what's coming to her and no, I don't care because of the fact that she was so reckless. If a girl like that wants to dress and act like adults (which almost all high school girls do) then they can take the consequences like adults.

A rape victim, especially a young one, is a different story. I believe that, if they choose to, they have more reason to abort than those who just have unprotected sex and then abort. I'm not saying that there isn't also the adoption option (god i'm good), but it's like I said before, I am for pro-choice but I do believe that some people need to rise up to their problems. (aka the lovely girl you tried to give as an example)

See, this is the kind of shit I'm talking about. This is the misogynistic shit that makes women still viewed less than men.

Let me make this very clear to you demoscout:
HAVING SEX IS NOT A CRIME.
Do you get it? You punish crimes. You do not punish women for not committing a crime.

Yet, you, and your fucking misogynist attitude, wants to punish women for having sex.

Let me reitterate, just to make sure it gets through every single pore of your sexist ideas:
WOMEN HAVE SEXUALITIES.
HAVING SEX IS NOT A CRIME.
YOU DO NOT PUNISH PEOPLE FOR HAVING CONSENSUAL SEX.
You have no reason to punish women with a pregnancy for having sex.

Having an abortion is dealing with the consequences. The world does not revolve around you, the world does not revolve around the idea that women shouldn't have sex unless they want to reproduce, and no matter you say: having an abortion will always be dealing with the consequences of having sex.

Also: more than half of abortions are done by women who used birth control. More than half, so these women were not "reckless" by any means. Please, get your sexist, misogynistic views back to the 19th century, because feminism has come and is defeating the idea that women have no sexuality and should only have sex to reproduce.

Hmmmmmm...Well. I'm going to just add in my two cents. I believe that every woman should be entitled to have a choice of what to do with their body. Sure, one can be pro-life be for eliminating abortion or simply putting a vast amounts of restrictions on it, but really would that actually make a difference or would it just cause more problems? It's possible that it could cause more problems. Not every woman can handle the concept of having an unwanted baby so it could be possible for them to resort to rash actions such as medicine cocktails or the old Straightened Coat Hanger. Some women can't have a baby for it may kill them within the process of birth. So why should one keep it if the don't desire it, nor can they handle it? That may lead the self mutilation methods as said above. Also, with all of these restrictions that the government is trying to place on access to abortions and what not wouldn't that impede on the other subjects such as a person's freedom to do whatever they wish with their body. See? When it comes to restricting abortion and freedom of doing what you want with your body...there comes conflict. It would be best solved if it was just left alone. It's the mother's body, and everything she does will have an effect upon the fetus. So if she is ridden with guilt and what not and doesn't want to give birth to this baby, then she should have it aborted. Why bring a child into the world when there's the possibility of neglect, abuse, or some type of abandon? Also, let's not forget that it's also the mother's fault for not taking the necessary precautions when it came to contraception. Oh, which leads to another thing....Contraception is not 100% not one single form of contraception is 100% so there will be accidents and when that accident occurs because of something breaking or the pill not working. You have a baby...then this is where abortion would come in handy...though, the couple shouldn't be having intercourse when they knew they couldn't bear the responsibilities of having a baby.
Also, there's also the issue of what a person considers a fetus to be living. . .Some say from the time of conception to the time of birth. While others say when it fetus gets its first heartbeat. Honestly, I do not know. It could go either way with me. There are so many ways you could look at this and neither side whether Pro-Life or Pro-Choice is right or wrong. Nothing's exactly solid when it comes to abortion because of all of the different points and arguments that could be made.

And did I say, KRIS, that it was a crime? All I was saying is that those who decide to let men into their pants, without even being legal yet, need to face up to responsibility if they end up puking the next morning.

You call me a misogynist...you really need to rethink the words you choose. I'm just a realist, here. I'm not the type of person who would complain that sex is meant for procreation. I lost my virginity when I was 18, but at least I was careful about it. (18 may be legal, but I would have been, in no way, ready to have a baby) If I had gotten knocked up, I wouldn't have aborted (the worst thing I would have done is given the baby up for adoption).

Of course we, women, have sexualities. Sex is a great thing. I won't deny that, but I still stand firm in what I believe.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with me, but if you are going to challenge my statements, do not put words in my writing. You tend to do that a lot and not just with me. Also, you need to learn to debate without calling people names, Kris. There are many things I could have called you, but for the sake of maintaining what order there is within this thread, I refrain.

I want to give my opinion too, but first I want to know.. What are the laws for abortion where you live?
In Denmark, you can abort up to 12 weeks. It is the ethics who decides stuff like that. If you really don't want the child, it is possible to get it removed in week 14, if you talk with the right people.
In week 18, you can check if there is any malformations on the baby, and you can get it removed, if there is.
Personally, I dislike that other people are pushing their morals on to you, when it's supposed to be you who decides when you want a baby.
The worst reason I have heard ever, is that people shouldn't get a abortion, because it looks like a human being. (I don't have spell checker on this computer, so I'll change it when I get home, if there is any mistakes)
I believe, that the different between us, and animals is our consciousness and feelings. It's on a whole different level, and that is what makes us 'human'.
If a set of twins was born, what would be the different between them? Their bodies are the same, same DNA and all that. The different between them is the consciousness. That is not something we have, before we are born. I believe it's about 3 month, before you are conscious, but I'm not sure.
But, my point is, before we are conscious, we aren't really 'human'. The different between the twins, would only be there after birth. Before that, they aren't any better than animals. And unless you are against killing animals, killing unborn children won't be any different, and therefor I can't see why we shouldn't be able to abort under the whole process. The baby doesn't care, because it isn't conscious about it's existent.
And by the way, I haven't talked much about the mother, now have I? I don't care, why they got pregnant. When the baby is there, you have to deal with it in some way, cautious or not. And killing a piece of meat isn't that much of a loss.

If you think, all children should have a chance to live, you would get all the sperm cells in the world, and make babies out of it. How well would that end? ;3

The way is works, in the US, is that since the fetus has somewhat of a pulse, it is technically conscious and more than just a piece of meat. At least, that's one thing that the pro-life supporters use in their arguments. Since it is conscious, even though it doesn't have a brain yet or anything from what I know, it is considered murder to pro-lifers.

Um.. well legally, in the US, 17 states consider a fetus living at the time of conception. Most of the rest consider it living somewhere between 12 and 16 weeks. You have to keep in mind, however, that these laws are made by lawyers and not doctors or scientists. People with agendas and reasons for their views.

Medically, however, there is no real answer. Brain activity does not start until 12 weeks, but this activity is limited to basic bodily functions. True thought, the "Wow, I'm here" kind of thought, doesn't start til 24 weeks or later. That's when the light-bulb comes on, literally. The neurons start firing and connections are made.

The heartbeat starts at about 3 weeks.

But if you look at the medical milestones, there's no way to judge which one of these is the point that the fetus is HUMAN. What makes it human?

It's heartbeat? Rats have heartbeats. Heck, insects have heartbeats of a type, so why does that make it human? Yes, this might be a good judge of when the fetus becomes alive, I admit, but we kill living things every single day without a second thought, don't we?

And brain activity? The basic activity that allows the body to function is comparable to the process that drives a flower to move so it's face can follow the sun as it moves across the sky. This basic primal thought is found in accident victims that have suffered brain death. Those who have suffered brain death are typically only kept alive so that their bodies can be used to save others. The thoughts that make you and me human, the ideas and emotions we feels, don't start til much much later, far after the point an abortion can be obtained in the US.

What about pain? Does the ability to feel pain make it human? Well, the fetus doesn't feel pain til after week 12. This is the limit on abortions in most states. But why would the ability to feel pain make it human, or even living? There are plants that feel and react to pain as well, if not better, then a 12 week old fetus.

Based on medical information, there is just no way to understand at what exact point a fetus becomes human. There are ways to decide when it becomes living, but that really holds no baring on the matter, because all living things do not reserve the right to life simply because of their status as "living". It sounds harsh, but it's very very true.

And when it comes to religious aspects of life, the bible, the Qur'an and most organized religions are about the same... 12-14 weeks. The point when the fetus resembles a tiny human. After the tail is gone and when the head has formed into a proper human skull and the eyes don't look alien. The Bible says that if a fetus is born premature, it is treated as a Christian and has a proper burial if it looks human (12-14 week). If it's still too small to look human, it doesn't have a soul and doesn't need a proper burial. Most religions texts say the same thing.

The point of all of this is that there is no way to judge when a fetus is alive or human, and man made law doesn't take religion or science into account when it decides when abortions can be preformed.

They do, however, take medical responsibility and the possibility life into account. A fetus can not survive outside the womb before 24 weeks. Second trimester abortions are rare, but do happen. Whenever one IS preformed, a medical staff must be on hand, IN ALL US STATES, to assure that all measures are taken to prolong the life of a viable fetus. If the fetus has a chance of living outside the womb, even a small one, it has to be given that chance.

Does that answer questions, or raise more?

When it comes to us killing living things every day, it's true. We kill animals, insects, and plants without a second thought and, my theory is, all because there seems to be this idea of superiority that people have. I tend to delve into this thought sometimes and think things like 'why is it so wrong to kill other people? What REALLY makes us so better than any other living thing?' I guess an answer would be because of how we advance in society and animals stay primitive. I don't know, I don't mean to stray so far off topic. It's just that a part of your post really caught my attention and got me thinking on the matter again.

Thanks for giving some of those facts. My medical knowledge is quite small; I only knew so much.

When it comes to our own survival, we are willing to kill other people. That's why there are self defense laws. And it's not just humans, it's everything. If a bear feels threatened, it will kill it's own kind. If a lion's space is invaded, it'll kill it's own kind. This goes for apes as well. Yes, humans have other, more complex reasons for murder, hate, rage, jealousy, but we understand self preservation and it's role in nature. Heck, even plants have a sense of self preservation. One will overwhelm another when a space is too cramped for both to live.

I would look at Abortion as, at it's most basic level, self preservation. Yes, there are as many reasons for making the choice to abort as there are women who do it, but for the most part, the woman is choosing to protect herself. To take away an element that might cause her some harm, physical, mental, financial, ect. . You can call it selfish, but there's no laws against being selfish, is there?

Originally Posted by MollyJean

You can call it selfish, but there's no laws against being selfish, is there?

No, not really. After all, we humans are all selfish by nature.

Originally Posted by demoscout

You call me a misogynist...you really need to rethink the words you choose.

Well it would seem my self imposed exile from the Debates forum has come to an end. I have been following your exchanges with Kris quite briefly, and I would like to direct your attention to the following site. It deals with Feminist thought and theory in general, at an introductory level. Guidelines and information on the site can be found here. As for their entry on reproductive freedom, that can be found here. They do a good job giving a brief overview of what reproductive rights are. As for a more in depth look at the pro choice aspect I would heavily advise following their links. Especially their link to thinking girl's blog.

Am I blind, here, or do people keep thinking that, this whole time, I've been saying that women do not have "reproduction rights" as you put it? I never said that nor stressed it at all. I, simply, have no sympathy for underage girls who have unprotected sex and then get pregnant. Am I saying that laws should be imposed to dictate how women have sex? No, I'm not.

Your response has made it painfully clear that you did not even get as far as this link, which gives a brief overview of what reproductive rights are. One aspect of a persons reproductive rights is their access to abortion. As I mentioned, said link gives a very brief overview. For a more detailed look at the pro choice aspect, you should follow their links. Like last time, I heavily advise following their link to Thinking Girl.

I'll admit, no I didn't read it.
Sorry I jumped to conclusions. I just thought that you were basically trying to re-feed me what Kris had been saying. Especially since you quoted that particular statement I had made at the start of your previous post.
I can always read them later. I don't have the time to delve into other sites right now since I have to go soon.

I am very pro-choice. If I accidently got pregnant through all my birth control (I'm uuber cautious and use both pills and condoms), and I'm not ready for a kid, then I'm ok with getting an abortion. I'd rather just end it right there instead of getting fat for nine months, getting unneeded stretch marks, and then handing the nasty little critter off to foster care where it spends the next 18 years of it's miserable life. No thanks. I've seen what foster care can do to people. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I'll have babies when I'm ready, and no sooner thank you very much. I don't believe it's murder until the parasitic baby can live and breathe outside of the host-mother all by itself. I don't agree with people who abuse the system and get twenty abortions because they were too lazy to wrap it before they tapped it. They're just being stupid. However, for people who have gotten raped, or are not ready/willing to have a kid and use the proper birth control in the first place, then I'm all for it. Also, if it'll make the number of teen-mums go down, I'm all for it. Girls need to stop becoming mothers at age thirteen. Personally, I think their parents should stuff a chastity belt between their legs and solve the problem at it's source! Lol!

This might be a bit of an extreme stance to take, but I'm pro-choice in all cases. Hell, I believe that an abortion should be available to anyone and everyone who wants one, regardless of how far into the pregnancy she is with no questions asked.

Also, I believe the Hyde amendment should be repealed. I don't like paying for two wars with no end in sight with my tax dollars, nor do I like paying for abstinence-only "sex-ed" that keeps people ignorant of safe-sex methods; but I don't see any amendments barring federal funds going towards those. Why should federal funds not be allowed to go towards paying for a safe, legal medical procedure?