Women and their inferior status have long been practiced in the world since pretty much the dawn of civilization. Not until just recently, have women even started to begin to be recognized as equal to their male counterparts. Why is it that males have always been the predominant half of human civilization? What exactly caused women to even start being viewed as inferior by their male counterparts? In this discussion I hope to invoke some thought provoking ideas to try to determine exactly what triggered this human attitude. Two general reasons come to mind to explain this strange phenomena, the first being that women are assumed to be the definition of 'evil,' and the second being that women are 'weaker' than men. I define 'evil' in this discussion to mean an assumption of negativity. To start this discussion, I am going to give some examples, current and historical to demonstrate my point.

In America, you pick up a classic video game, Super Mario World. You put the cartridge in the console and turn it on. You hear the amusing classic Mario music and start your adventure. It gets summed up by this. "Oh no! An important 'princess' has been kidnapped and needs assistance!!!" It is now up to you, a male character named Mario, to go rescue this princess. This video game reflects the popular ideal that women are not only weak (getting herself kidnapped,) but also a negative influence on your life (Having to quit your plumbing job to go rescue someone.)

Going before video games we can take any classic Walt Disney movie. Movies that most parents decide are okay for their children to watch. Do children somehow understand the underlying meaning of most of those movies? Does this affect them on a psychological level to understand that women are indeed both 'evil' and 'weak?' For an example we can look at the classic movie of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Main summary of the movie is as follows. A helpless, naive woman gets targeted by an evil 'witch,' also portrayed as a woman, due to narcissistic issues. I would also like to point out that in the book version, the males who are portrayed as 'evil' are actually being controlled/manipulated by the main antagonistic 'evil' woman. One example of this would be the "Huntsman."
Going back to my movie example we can see how women are again being portrayed as 'evil' and 'weak.' Snow White, is weak, in that she cannot defend herself against the "Huntsman" and also falls victim to an "Apple" (Adam and Eve reference?) Furthermore, the only way she can awaken is by a heroic prince's (male) kiss. On top of all that, she also stays in the company of seven male dwarves to be protected.

The witch on the other hand, is portrayed as 'evil' and as narcissistic in her nature. The witch seems to possess an enslaved 'male' mirror who can only speak the truth ("I personally say the mirror represents male, since the male is one to judge a woman for her 'fairness' and thus objectify and cast the woman in an inferior light.") So, truth being a positive quality, further goes to show that men are 'good.' Through the witches' narcissistic nature, she aims to kill anyone who looks better than her. Thus why Snow White has now become a target. The Huntsman is another 'male' that is enslaved by the Queen and is forced to do her bidding lest he lose his life.

These are just two examples of current media in America that promotes the inferiority of women in society. There are a ton of other video games and movies that also promote it if you look at them the right way. In either case, moving on...

In this next section I am going to discuss different aspects of religion and their overall view on females. One religion that quickly comes to mind are the three main religions that worship the Abrahamic God. The best evidence that Christianity supports the "women are evil and/or weak" theory, is the first book of the Holy Bible. The story of Adam and Eve folks. How does this promote the idea that women are evil and/or weak you ask? Well, lets take a look. We have a God, who decides to create a human being. So he creates Adam, Adam is lonely and God creates Eve. This goes to show that males are automatically more important since they were created first. In some version, Eve was created from the rib of Adam, again showing that women cannot exist without man. Now, to take this further, we look at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which Adam and Eve were warned not to eat the fruit of. Eve falls to the temptation of an animal (lesser than human by human standards,) and thus eats the fruit (A sign of weakness). She then, after being weak, promotes the eating of the fruit to Adam. Adam obliges (woman manipulation,) and eats the fruit, only to be punished by God. God says that because the fruit has been eaten by both Adam and Eve, that evil (sin) exists in both of them and casts them out of the Garden of Eden into the rugged world as we know it.

Going back even further, we can look at Greek and Roman mythology. One major example that comes to mind is the Trojan War. Why was this war fought? Because of a woman. We can also look at the mythological creatures of Greece and/or Rome. We have Medusa, female, who turns those who look at her into stone. We have the three witches, again female, who control someone's life. We also have sirens, again portrayed as females. On top of all that we have Hera, among many other female Goddesses, that are portrayed in a completely negative light of Jealousy and Spite.

Looking back even further, we can view Egyptian culture.

Originally Posted by Egyptian culture

From the formal paintings on tombs, the Egyptian stereotype of a woman was that of wife and mother, the husband being the head of the household. She worked indoors (mostly), out of the Egyptian sun, so her skin was lighter than that of her male counterparts. (When she died, she was painted green, as were the men, as this was the colour of rebirth.) Women were seen to be slim and beautiful, even though a fat stomach in men equated with wealth and power (the rich could afford to eat more than the poor!) Noble women did not work in these paintings, but women are seen to be dancers, musicians, acrobats, sacred 'prostitutes', maids, kitchen staff, field workers and much, much more.

Sculpture, unlike painting, usually only showed noble or influential people. When women were in a sculpture, she was usually part of a husband-and-wife or family group, with the wife physically supporting her husband with an arm around his shoulder. In the sculptures of a pharaoh and his wife, she was normally on a smaller scale, indicating the pharaoh's godly aspect - the wife was only human. (Normal sculptures had the husband and wife in proportion to each other.) Women only sculptures are very rare.

...Despite this, due to the fundamental biology of a women, she only had a certain range of jobs available to her. She was married at the age when the males were starting their job training, and naturally became mother and housewife. Though a wife could become her husband's official representative from time to time. For example, if a husband was absent, she could take charge of his business for him. When a high-class woman found little to occupy her time, a religious position such as a priestess for a certain god or goddess, was encouraged. She was expected to make contributions to the temple - she was not just a "pretty face" for the particular temple she worked for.

This goes to show that even in ancient cultures, though not as terribly inferior, woman were still treated as inferior. I have one last example that could raise a lot of awareness as well. It has to do with Mesopotamia and an article I found about female subordination theory. For those of you who do not know, Mesopotamia is the oldest acknowledged civilization in human history. Dating back to about 6000 years ago. The quote below is pulled from Women and Mesopotamia if you wish to read the whole entirety of it.

Originally Posted by Mesopotamia and Women

4
That only one sex has the capacity to give birth has profoundly impacted the development
of human culture. Historically the direct consequence of this inequitable means of human
reproduction has been the subordination of the female sex.
Before undertaking an analysis of the documentary evidence from the Ancient
Mesopotamian societies, it is imperative to look closely at the situation of the Neolithic people
who inhabited the area prior to state formation in Mesopotamia in order to determine what
changes, if any, occurred in gender roles as societies adapted to an agricultural way of life.
The archaeological and anthropological evidence of human culture in prehistorical times
overwhelmingly indicates that, before the widespread permeation of a sedentary, agricultural way
of life, males and females lived together in relatively egalitarian hunter-gatherer societies. Jane
Peterson argues that “male and female activity spheres overlapped considerably” during
Neolithic time periods. Peterson highlights the difficulties in making accurate determinations of
1
gender roles in prehistory, including labor distribution among the sexes, due to the ambiguity of
the evidence available for analysis.
2
Nevertheless, it is safe to assume that, prior to the development of farming, labor was
divided along gender lines according to necessity. Biological function dictates that women
devote a great deal of time to gestating and nurturing children. This is gendered labor division at
its most basic, fundamental level; that is, in the absence of any social constructs whatsoever,
child bearing and rearing – for at least the first year of a child’s life – must necessarily be done by
women only. Men, unrestrained by such biological determinants, had the spare time to hone
specialized skills and crafts. Further, without the hindrances inherent in traveling with small
children, men were free to travel farther from the tribe’s camp on a regular basis, to hunt and to
augment a tribe’s food sources. In the absence of any conclusive evidence it is safe to speculate
that these societies possessed a social hierarchy that was based on actual ability rather than
prescribed function.

Keeping in mind, the above is still only a theory, please discuss all the aspects I have addressed in this post and try to provide valuable input on why women have been portrayed as the 'inferior sex' for as long as humans can trace it back through the many civilizations.

Please NOTE: I may add additional information to this post as I see fit or come across it. This is in no means a full analysis of cultures and religions and only a few broad examples. Please feel free to bring any other religions/cultures to this discussion that you feel are relevant as well.

I'm not going to take a side on this, I'm just going to point out some things in your argument itself.

First off, the whole Snow White thing. The ORIGINAL story it was more than just an apple. There was also a corset and a cameo necklace I believe. I think reading it as an Adam and Eve reference is going a tad too far, and if anything, it isn't Walt Disney who did it, that story was around long before he was ever alive. Also, in the story, I don't remember the mirror having any gender.

There are a ton of other video games and movies that also promote it if you look at them the right way. In either case, moving on...

There are also a TON of video games and movies where the female is the hero, or where they are on equal ground as the male. Legend of Dragoon, two of the females in this game are easily more powerful than the MAIN MALE CHARACTER. One holds the power to destroy the world, and she ends up getting kidnapped by a MALE to be used for this. (this is showing the evil ways of MEN as well then, no?) The other female is one that has been alive longer any of the other characters and is the one who, in the past, has been killing these girls before they could mature and be manipulated. (obviously this one slipped past her). There's the movie Quest for Camelot where the female takes the lead role and the man, is again, shown as the evil-doer. So listing off some movies that portray the women as weak and evil is only one-sided as there are plenty the same that go the other way.

From what I know, and what I've learned and studied, "hate" (can't think of a better word) towards women didn't really start until Christianity came about, so there's no surprise there that there's serious issues with women in the bible. That Eve was created by Adam could be taken three different ways actually. One, like you stated, women cannot live without men. On the other hand, God DID create her so maybe it can be taken as Adam needed HER help. Or it could be taken that they both need each other to survive, which personally, I think of it that way. As for Eve convincing Adam to eat the fruit, I think this is actually promoting the intelligence of women. It might be evil, but in my eyes it makes her look smart. Yes, though, the Bible did majorly depict women as the bad one.

The Trojan war was not fought explicitly for a woman and to assume so is ludicrous. The "story" of Helen also talks about how she supposedly took a great deal of her King husbands fortune. The war wasn't fought because she was a women. It was because of the dishonor she had done to him and what she had taken as well. The two sides weren't exactly on the best of terms to begin with.

Again, Medusa. It is NOT Medusa's fault for her curse. Aphrodite, I believe, was the one who turned her into what she is because of her envy for her beauty. The three witches? If you mean the Fates then you are mistaken on their myth. They do not control someones life. They are merely the keepers of Fate, they do not create them, they merely cut the String when it is that persons time. They do not DECIDE when that time is. Sirens...yeah...only female, so pretty bad looking.

You're leaving out half of the info you know for a lot of these. You say that Hera was portrayed as spiteful and jealous. Well, first off, she was married to Zeus, her BROTHER, when HE tricked HER. He also was quite unfaithful.

Again, only picking and choosing what would make women seem like the evil and weak ones. In Egyptian mythology the only God that was considered "evil" was a MALE, Apep. Set was later to be considered evil. http://www.egyptiandreams.co.uk/set.php

Also, lets not forget about Isis, who was the one to actually save Osiris. This portrayed her as strong and good, constantly working hard against the evil that had been done. http://www.akhet.co.uk/isisosir.htm

Though a wife could become her husband's official representative from time to time. For example, if a husband was absent, she could take charge of his business for him. When a high-class woman found little to occupy her time, a religious position such as a priestess for a certain god or goddess, was encouraged. She was expected to make contributions to the temple - she was not just a "pretty face" for the particular temple she worked for.

So, they weren't completely without equality. It may have been their place in society to stand next to their husband like was explained in the rest of the quote you gave. But it seems to me that they weren't looked down on as completely inferior. They were obviously considered competent enough to lead them religiously and to take some hand in finances. I don't think have an expected role is the same as being treat as inferior. Often that means superiority. The superior in many cultures does LESS work. Maybe it's not that they saw women as inferior, but maybe that they saw men as the one who should do the work. From that one part of the quote I think it shows that they understood women WERE capable of a lot, men were jsut the ones expected to do it. Just saying that it's a different way to look at it.

I don't feel that your last statement has anything to do with women being weak or evil and am confused as to why it was included. Just because they raised the children doesn't mean they were viewed as inferior. It was out of necessity and simple logic that things were done that way according to that very theory.

In the absence of any conclusive evidence it is safe to speculate
that these societies possessed a social hierarchy that was based on actual ability rather than prescribed function.

Uhm...yeah, pretty much proves what I was trying to say.

There's a lot of countering evidence for everything you said. I could easily counter everything but the Christian/Bible bit, which I even said I believe to be the starting point of women really being treated as inferior.

I'm afraid I haven't much to contribute to this discussion, though I will say I greatly enjoyed reading your OP, Tutela :D

I would like to pose an alternate idea of why women have long been seen as inferior, though. Several years ago, I read an essay that brought up the idea of women as resources. I have lost track of this essay, but the gist of it was that, fertile females are as much a vital resource to a civilization as food, water, or land. When humans moved from being hunter/gatherers toward farmers who stayed in one place and formed societies, securing resources became a top priority. Continuation of the species was, of course, very important, and as one male could impregnate many females but one female could only be pregnant by one male at a time, and females had a good chance of dying during childbirth, the best way to ensure a constant supply of offspring was to strip women of rights entirely and make it so that every facet of their lives was taken out of their control. The best way to do this was to perpetuate ideas of female inferiority, that they were not as intelligent, not as strong, etc., and raise female children to believe that their worth to society was determined entirely by how many offspring they produced and raised to adulthood. After so many generations of everyone being taught sexist ideas like this, the original intent is forgotten and the lessons are seen as truth.

@Shalandriel:

1. I only used Walt Disney in my example to show how we pass off inferiority to our children, without even realizing it. Also, I am well aware Snow White wasn't created by Disney, and that the Apple wasn't the only thing. I simply used it as an example.

2. There are a ton, name one classic video game though. I think the only classic video game that has a female as a hero is Super Metroid, and most people who play the game doesn't even know she is indeed female. Now that more tolerance and equality have come to pass, the themes and roles in video games have changed to reflect that.

3. I didn't list a majority of movies, again, because my point was Walt Disney Movies and passing off inferior ideals to children.

4. Good point on Christianity, however like you said, she may have done it out of intelligence as it was 'the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.' Having this new intelligence she may have purposely manipulated the man, therefore making it evil in the man's eyes and setting the stage.

5. Trojan War-I did not say it is only because of being a woman, only that it was fought because of her. Yes this includes all the manipulation involved.

6. Not Medusa's fault, yet still Medusa is female and not male. On top of this, you mentioned Aphrodite. Aphrodite is yet another female. Again, portrayal of evil.

7. Why weren't males having the position of keeping the Fate? I believe that males may have considered death as a form of evil and therefore made the ones who were seemingly responsible for death, female.

8. Being unfaithful was not looked down upon in Greece when in reference to a male. I am not sure about the female part. However, another note about Zeus. Zeus was the Head of all Gods and Goddesses. Unfortunately for the rest, what he said goes. Why is he portrayed as male and not female? Again, humans portrayed the leaders as males, being a good thing, and female deities as lesser, showing subordination/inferiority. You are right in saying that I am leaving out a lot. As I have more time to research and see other people's input, I will add more to original post.

9. Please understand that the word inferior changed over the many civilizations. Depending on the culture, I could mean inferior, subordinate, less important/involved, lower status, etc. With that being said, I said that ancient Egypt wasn't as bad as later civilizations, but that it still practiced some sort of lifestyle that portrayed men over women.

10. If you'll notice in Egyptian mythology, female deities are also portrayed as evil. I will give examples below.

Originally Posted by Goddess myths in Egypt

Hathor was the goddess of joy, motherhood, and love. She looked after all women. She was the goddess of music and dancing, as well. Dead women were identified with Hathor, as men were identified with Osiris. She has a sun disk on her head and cow horns. Sometimes she had cow's ears or was a whole cow.

But she had another side as well, as Sekhmet, the Eye of Ra, the destructive Sun Goddess. The Egyptians knew that the Sun brought life, but they also knew that the desert Sun could kill you.

Ra, the Sun God, was angry with mankind, because they laughed at him. He said that he'd send down his anger as Sekhmet, the Eye of Ra. She went down to Earth, killing men, and drinking their blood. She started to frighten Ra, who only wanted to punish Mankind, not destroy them all. So he dyed some beer red, to look like blood. When Sekhmet saw the beer, she was thristy for blood, so she drank it all, got drunk and went to sleep. When she woke up, Ra persuaded her to stop killing Mankind.

Isis was the great mother-goddess. Her son was Horus, the enemy of Seth. Sometimes she has the baby Horus on her lap. Sometimes she has a throne on her head, as she is Queen of the goddesses. Sometimes she has a sun disk and horns, like Hathor.

Isis was also a great healer and magician. She got her magic powers by tricking Ra (see Ra's webpage).

This story begins on Nut and Geb's page. The war between Horus and his enemy Seth had lasted a long time. Isis decided to help her son Horus. She met Seth, and asked for his help. She described someone killing a man and taking all he had away from the man's son. Seth said that killer should pay for his crimes. Isis said that Seth himself was the killer, and he had condemned himself. The other gods agreed, and Seth was driven out into the Sahara Desert. This is the end of the story.

These two examples targeting two very important deities, show manipulation and deceit at it's finest as well as the example of Hathor being Sekhmet and basically being a Goddess of Destruction. Isis, was not only portrayed as a "good" deity, and it is foolish to assume so.

11. My last statement, I would like to point out, is completely relevant to the original topic of inferiority. My examples of evil and weakness are exactly that, two examples. There are more possible theories as to why women have been portrayed as such and this one about agriculture and practicality is just as good as any. This is why I included it.

@Philomel: Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed it :) You may want to read the article I linked towards the bottom. It may be of some great interest to you as it somewhat touches on what you have mentioned, but not exactly for the same reasons you listed.

In any case, I am pleased with the feedback and quite interested to see what others say :)

Most of my examples weren't meant to say that women didn't suffer from being consider inferior. They were merely examples as to how men often suffered the same views as evil and weak. I don't really feel that JUST showing the side where females are suffering from it is going to help find out where it really started. Which, form your OP, is what this thread is supposed to be about, when the idea that women are inferior to men started. Since with most of the examples you gave, I found examples that showed men often suffered the same level, I didn't feel that it really contributed to finding that starting point.

As to the video game example, I never played any before PS1 (which is the system the game I named is from) so I couldn't name any before that. PS1 is still a pretty old system though.

I see your point for the Medusa bit. As for the Fates. Some stories say they birthed the fate lines as well. The birthed them, watched over them, and ended them. This seems like a motherly aspect to me and might be why women were portrayed. The Fates weren't evil though. They simply WERE. They were like death. Death is not evil, it's simply an unavoidable thing. Fate is the same way. It is neither good nor evil. At the time I don't believe they were considered evil either.

Unfaithfulness in society may have been fine, but Hera herself had an issue with it, so the story goes. She refused to marry him for 300 years because she did not like it, and he tricked her into marrying him later.

It depends what story you go by unfortunately, so I don't think you can really use that bit on her "tricking Ra" for his powers.

Isis was a magician, possibly the archetype for the high priestess of the tarot. She learned her magic from Thoth, although according to some legends she obtained her powers from Ra himself by tricking him into revealing his name to her, thus acquiring his full magical knowledge.

Even according to the myth where she tricks Ra, she only gets the ability to use magic. She was already a Goddess and ruled over her other aspects.

http://www.crystalinks.com/isis.html

Also, if you're not going to be more specific on which kind of inferiority you mean, there's really no way of finding WHEN it started. If we go by the bible, women have ALWAYS been considered inferior.

There are many religions and/or cultures where the women are held in higher respect than the men, or at least equally.

There are instances recorded where women participated both in warfare and in kingship, although they were in the minority in these areas. Plutarch reports Celtic women acting as ambassadors to avoid a war amongst Celts chiefdoms on the Po valley during the 4th century BC

That and the following paragraph or two from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts#G...d_sexual_norms

If you want to find where women really (the big turning point maybe) began to be considered inferior, you should look at both sides, male and female roles.

Did you know that there was no such thing as "evil" in Egypt to begin with? During the second intermediate period is when certain stories were changed (there are many different versions of the Gods myths) and certain Gods became "evil". Set was the god of the desert. That is not an evil thing in itself. It wasn't until later that people started to view it as death, and evil things. Storms are not evil in themselves. People decided that they were evil because they suffered because of them, even though they are perfectly natural occurrences. As for Hathor. That story could also be taken as men are too controlling and the women don't know any better than to follow their orders blindly. In this case that may make her weak, but not necessarily evil. It really all has to do with how society/people individually look at it.

As to the last bit, again. I don't feel that women doing what was logical as being treated as inferior. They stayed at home and cared for the children because they were the ones who had to feed them until they were old enough to eat actual food and not the mothers milk. It was logical for the women to take care of things there. Since the men did not have to stay close to home they were able to wander and find animals to hunt. I don't see this as being treated as inferior, just the natural way things happened. When you want to talk about inferiority and people being view as "evil" and/or "weak" it tends to be because of social views. They choose to do it because of logic.

Matriarchal societies do exist, so I suppose it can fall either way depending on collective number of factors such as history, culture, religion ect. In contemporary western society these differences are becoming less prominent in some aspects. Looking at at modern media it is rare that we see women in passive, domestic roles. Disney films are some what better. Snow White was released fifty years ago so I wouldn't be inclined to say it was a fair reflection of today's standards. Plus it was a fairytale, and most fairytales are like that. Although you are right about them having deeper meanings. For example in the tale beauty and the beast, beauty comes to love the beast despite his flaws and this would reflect in real life when young brides were sent to marry men much older then themselves and perhaps not as attractive. The story is a reminder that the bride will get over these flaws and learn to love her husband.

I really don't have time to make a really long post, but I wanted to point out that most of the Egyption Gods and Goddesses, as far as we know, had good AND evil aspects. This can be said about most old religions and cultures. The Gods and Goddesses of ancient times had duel natures.

Maat is the only one I can think of that was purely Good, with no evil. Maat is an Egyptian Goddess representing, amongst other things, justice. If shown by her recorded history and actions, as with Ra and Sekhmet, she has acted as purely good. In comparison, Apep (male) a demon, but still, a powerful creature, was purely evil, with no redeeming qualities.

The short of it is, if I had more time, I would give you just as many examples of male Gods doing evil things and the female Goddesses acting benevolently to correct the evil.

May I point out with the Egyptian Mythology (my personal forte) that the reason that Hathor became Skehmet, was because Re commanded her because he feared the humans plot for a rebellion. It was because of a man's fear.

The story of Isis and the Death of Osiris, Set's jealousy caused him to kill his brother, while Isis and Nepthys (sister to Osiris, Set, and Isis, wife to Set) went on the search to try to save Osiris.

Isis and the Seven Scorpions, she tried to hide Horus from Set, (a man's desire to kill), and when she looked for lodgings from a villages nobility, she had a door slammed in her face. She did nothing, but the scorpions seeked vengence on her behalf, and stung the rich womans son. Isis heard the cry, and while it was a peasant girl that gave Isis lodgings, she still saved the boys life.

The reason why Isis drove Set into the desert, was so he would have less opprotunities to kill her son.

Isis was the matron goddess. Magic, and motherhood. What woman wouldn't want to keep her child safe?






EDIT: I think I just killed the discussion...