@una Ahhh, I see. That makes sense, and I have heard of these phenomena. Still, if it doesn't affect the direct couple, should it have an impact on their decision on whether to be together or not...? I'm sure a young couple would need an AWFUL lot of foresight to start planning and worrying generations in advance... foresight which isn't really practical for them to attempt, hm?

*tired*

Originally Posted by Lorika

@una Ahhh, I see. That makes sense, and I have heard of these phenomena. Still, if it doesn't affect the direct couple, should it have an impact on their decision on whether to be together or not...? I'm sure a young couple would need an AWFUL lot of foresight to start planning and worrying generations in advance... foresight which isn't really practical for them to attempt, hm?

*tired*

Not really. Perhaps if they have a genetic illness or are carrier ect they may want to consider not having kids or adopting. But otherwise it will take some intensive breeding over many years before the health problems begin to show. It's all highly unlikely. As I said before there has to be a culture for inbreeding for the effects to take place.

Are they first cousins, khboy?

I do have to say that I have a friend who not only married his first cousin (I was friends with the cousin, also) he was already the offspring of first cousins. Their children seem to be okay, but it's not like I pry, either. They are really great parents, too.

And yes, it did disturb me a bit when I found out they were going to get married (they had been dating in secret) but once I got used to the idea it they were just like any of my other married friends.

To be honest, I think it would be even more awkward if they dated and then had a nasty break-up than if they lived happily ever after. D=

Sora wouldn't do it himself (don't like to many of his cousins), but Sora doesn't mind that other people get with their cousins.
People are People and in some ways, we're ALL related, it's just a matter of how much.

it reminds Sora of that episode of House where this couple was really sick and in the end they both found out they both had it because they're half brother and half sister. Loved that episode! XP

Are they first cousins, khboy?

I do have to say that I have a friend who not only married his first cousin (I was friends with the cousin, also) he was already the offspring of first cousins. Their children seem to be okay, but it's not like I pry, either. They are really great parents, too.

And yes, it did disturb me a bit when I found out they were going to get married (they had been dating in secret) but once I got used to the idea it they were just like any of my other married friends.

To be honest, I think it would be even more awkward if they dated and then had a nasty break-up than if they lived happily ever after. D=

Yes, they are first cousins, though they didn't meet until a couple of years ago due to family problems as a whole.

I personally think that dating or having any sort of romantic relations with blood relatives is wrong. I think it is quite gross and with all the people in the world why on earth would you want to go with your cousin? I know that they say 'keep it in the family' and all but incest is taking things to a whole new level.

One of the areas near where I live is known for its population consisting of mainly inbred yokels with webbed feet and completely backwards brains. Obviously the webbed feet is a gross exaggeration, but if you actually see some of the people from the area you can see where the chromosomes have been to closely matched and you end up with a bunch of retards running around the countryside.

I may be putting things in a rather blunt way or in a cruel way as some may see, but to me sleeping with your own family is wrong.

Originally Posted by Vexatious~Venom

[FONT="Arial"][COLOR="Indigo"]I personally think that dating or having any sort of romantic relations with blood relatives is wrong. I think it is quite gross and with all the people in the world why on earth would you want to go with your cousin?

Yes, because people choose who they fall in love with based on how many other choices there are in the world. I guess, by that logic, people shouldn't date members of their own sex because there's an entire other half of the global population.

I know that they say 'keep it in the family' and all but incest is taking things to a whole new level.

Marrying in order to keep political and economic power and influence within a family is not what we were discussing here. This statement is irrelevant.

One of the areas near where I live is known for its population consisting of mainly inbred yokels with webbed feet and completely backwards brains. Obviously the webbed feet is a gross exaggeration, but if you actually see some of the people from the area you can see where the chromosomes have been to closely matched and you end up with a bunch of retards running around the countryside.

And chances are that they're not inbred at all (people quite often use "inbred" as synonymous with "stupid") and if they are, their intelligence has nothing to do with the fact that they're inbred or even their genetics at all, but some other factor.

I may be putting things in a rather blunt way or in a cruel way as some may see, but to me sleeping with your own family is wrong.

I would say something equally cruel, blunt, and quite frankly ignorant, but thankfully I do not assume that my morals allow me to treat someone who doesn't share my morality like they're not a person, or that adding that it's just my opinion somehow makes it better.

Meh. We are all related to a certain degree, right? As long as it doesn't result in some genetic hijinx in potential offspring, I'm not going spazz out about it.

Just my off the cuff remark. I'm willing to leave the deep thinking to the rest of you at the moment. And what fine job you are doing of it too :yes:

Edit: You know what? Nerd that I am, I want to add more, but am feeling too bloody fragmented at the moment to do much in the way of that... Perhaps if I am feeling up to it later, I may outline the various theories that Egyptologists have proffered over the years on the nature of Pharaonic sister-brother marriages (for example, the fascinating but not always easy to digest essay that Nancy Luomala wrote on the potential of Matrilineal right to rule and it's echos in mythology in the book Feminism and Art History), although even when those are taken into account, the exact nature of any of those relationships would vary with the individual couples involved... for instance, the intimate marriage of Greco-roman pharaoh Ptolemy II to his sister shocked segments of the society at the time. I might also mention the the various genetic abnormalities that have shown up in royal mummies over the years, and the likelihood that incest had to do with any of them. This is all assuming I don't wander away and forget to come back :sweat:
Basically, as a person who thinks too much for her own good, I have mulled over before a good number of the points being made here, and I believe that their inclusion here has been greatly beneficial to the discussion over all. It could have so easily descended into debased chaos.

Seeing that the reproductive aspect of incestuous relationships has dominated this conversation, and the validity of it being included as a real factor has been brought up, I would like to share what has been one of the factors in colouring my opinion on the matter, and it's inclusion in my preliminary statement: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...y.kateconnolly
Even if it had no bearing on my opinion, I feel it is relevant to the conversation, and worth a look.

Originally Posted by khboy0

Yes, they are first cousins, though they didn't meet until a couple of years ago due to family problems as a whole.

Ah, that makes sense. That's how it happened for my friends, and for that matter, as for the parents of the guy of the couple, also.

I think if they had grown up together as close cousins it would be a bit different.

New studies have started to show that cousins may not cause inbreeding problems, even 1st. The risk does increase with the closeness of the relatives though. But it won't automatically lead to deformity or disability. I heard this on NPR, by the way.

Also, if they didn't grow up knowing each other I see no problem with it. They simply didn't form the kind of bond that they normally would have had they grown up together.

As a Biochemist who has actually studied genetic lineage and what not, I'd say that as long as they aren't planning on having kids, it is okay. If they are planning on having kids, they should see a genetic counselor first to determine if there are any major issues that would result with their mating.

Unfortunately, the couple in question with this thread has wound up breaking up. Neither wanted to, and neither had to, but they just decided it was best. They're both pretty upset about it, and they love each other very much. They may get back together someday when they're older and can be more free with their relationship, or they may not. It's heartbreaking, though. That's for sure.

Ah, I'm really sorry to hear, that, K :( I hope they're both alright.

I suppose it's all for the best, but it is pretty sad. I hope they are able to either be together someday, or have a relationship that's just as fulfilling for them someday.

I personally wouldn't date my own cousin but if somebody else did all the power to them. They just need to prepare themselves for social stigmas. When it comes to possible children so long as their family hasn't been inbreeding for generations they'll probably be okay. The fact that they are cousins also means they have other genetics in the mix where if they were siblings not-so much. Also, an example. Let's say heart problems run in your family, by inter-breeding your child's chances of having heart problems is a lot higher than if you didn't inter-breed but that doesn't mean they'll be retarded. And thats assuming that they will have children.

Thanks for the update, KHboy. I hope it is for the best. Maybe since they're in school, they'll grow as people and be able to look back on it as a growing experience someday.

My cousins married and my great-granddads first wife was his cousin, so I'm okay with it, now a-days the gene pool is so big it doesn't matter as long as it's only a few doing this, if everyone did this well... we're not getting into it.

P.S. royal familys would marry brother to sister, to "keep the blood-lines pure." that's all your friends' doing;)

Sorry, but I'm taking Vexatious~Venom's side. I think its gross and wrong. But I'm going to go as far to say it isnt my place to judge any person who does it. But I think its gross.

Originally Posted by MidnightWolve

Sorry, but I'm taking Vexatious~Venom's side. I think its gross and wrong. But I'm going to go as far to say it isnt my place to judge any person who does it. But I think its gross.

You know, it's funny. I remember someone in one of the gay marriage threads saying that exact same thing about homosexual relationships. And it wasn't ten minutes before he was ripped apart. Why is it that certain people are defended from hateful shit like this, but with others it's "well it's your opinion so whatever"? After all, you only think of it as "gross" because you've been raised to think that, so objectively-speaking, there's not much difference between this and any other sort of relationship that is or has been in the past considered "taboo".

Originally Posted by Philomel

You know, it's funny. I remember someone in one of the gay marriage threads saying that exact same thing about homosexual relationships. And it wasn't ten minutes before he was ripped apart. Why is it that certain people are defended from hateful shit like this, but with others it's "well it's your opinion so whatever"? After all, you only think of it as "gross" because you've been raised to think that, so objectively-speaking, there's not much difference between this and any other sort of relationship that is or has been in the past considered "taboo".

Actually, I wasnt raised to think it wrong, my thoughts on this are strictly my own thank you. And what the hell is wrong with someone letting out their thoughts on something. I never said that the someone having a relationship with their own cousin is wrong, or at least it wasnt meant to look that way. In fact, it happened many many years ago. And many royal families did that. So why not today?

I think its wrong. So what? Some people dont approve of homosexuality. I'm not one of them. But people have the right to think their own thoughts about things. I choose to defend on certain topics, and sometimes I disagree. Are you saying that I am not allowed to disagree with something? I don't practice it. Perhaps those who do live happily ever after like any other person. I am not judging anyone.


Some people have disagreements with certain things. Who is to say any of us is right or wrong?

Now I'm not ripping anyone that is in a cousin relationship apart. I was merely stating how I felt about the matter. I wasnt judging the person for what they did. When I say its wrong I'm not saying it is a taboo or a sin or whatever the heck, I'm not religious so I dont believe in hell. What I am saying is "it doesnt feel right to me". So why do you want to force me to agree with it? I'm not trying to get you to believe its wrong if you believe it is ok. So get off my case.

Originally Posted by MidnightWolve

Actually, I wasnt raised to think it wrong, my thoughts on this are strictly my own thank you.

Then explain why incest is icky yet other relationships are fine. If you hadn't been raised this way, you'd see them the same as any other relationship. You might have an argument about genetics or the issue of power balance, but you wouldn't describe it as "gross" because that word simply doesn't apply. That's a knee-jerk reaction, exactly like the one in the gay marriage thread, based on what you've been taught and your manufactured sensibilities.

And what the hell is wrong with someone letting out their thoughts on something. I never said that the someone having a relationship with their own cousin is wrong, or at least it wasnt meant to look that way. In fact, it happened many many years ago. And many royal families did that. So why not today?

I think its wrong. So what? Some people dont approve of homosexuality. I'm not one of them. But people have the right to think their own thoughts about things. I choose to defend on certain topics, and sometimes I disagree. Are you saying that I am not allowed to disagree with something? I don't practice it. Perhaps those who do live happily ever after like any other person. I am not judging anyone.


Some people have disagreements with certain things. Who is to say any of us is right or wrong?

Now I'm not ripping anyone that is in a cousin relationship apart. I was merely stating how I felt about the matter. I wasnt judging the person for what they did. When I say its wrong I'm not saying it is a taboo or a sin or whatever the heck, I'm not religious so I dont believe in hell. What I am saying is "it doesnt feel right to me". So why do you want to force me to agree with it? I'm not trying to get you to believe its wrong if you believe it is ok. So get off my case.

No, I will not get off your case. Saying something is "gross and wrong", especially when it's pertaining to something people do, is a far cry from saying it's just not your thing. Had you meant that, you would have said that, and not used language that was both insulting (if someone called you disgusting, would you take it as simply their observation about you, or an insult?) and judgmental (if you're saying something's wrong, you're judging it). You could say it is simply not your thing without being hateful and intolerant. And I'm not sure what you were trying to prove by saying that it's just your opinion and everyone's entitled to their beliefs. It's an "opinion" that some races are better than others. It's an "opinion" that certain people should be killed for the way they were born or the religion they choose to follow. It's an "opinion" that some people do not have a right to their bodies based on their sex. Opinions are nearly always far more disgusting and damaging than objective fact.

EDIT: And besides, why does it matter? You said what they (and anyone who might read this who is or has been involved in a relationship with a relative) were doing was disgusting, I said what you were doing was disgusting. If what you say isn't harmful, or rather, if the fact that it's harmful doesn't matter because it's your opinion, then why are you getting oh-so-upset over what I said to you, or even commenting on it at all? It's just my opinion.

I personally dont agree with incest. Though I dont really support it, I totally respect peoples choices in life.


Now. From your comment about "getting raised that way" or whatever, Philmol. Each person has their own mind, and their own choices. Just because they live with parents who disagree doesnt mean their going to agree with their disagreeing and go their parent's ways.

Say both parents are republican. That doesnt really nessicarily mean that the child will be a republican. Perhaps he/she disagrees with their parents political beliefs? maybe she aims towards democrat by her own. Lets just add in that everyone in her family is all the way republican. Its you're own beliefs. Not your families beliefs. Though sometimes people are raised that way, and for a lot of people thats how things go in life. Their parents raise them to be Christians or whatever. If Wolf says her family didnt raise her to have this specific belief to this topic, then is her right to say its her belief and her belief alone.

Do you see where I am getting at?

Yes, but I think you're missing my point. There are beliefs, and then there are things that are more determined by the culture you grow up in than any individual beliefs or opinions. A friend of mine would say that everything is a cultural construction. I don't know if I agree with that, but there's certainly a great deal that people simply accept as reality. Incest being gross is one of those things. There's no logical reason to describe it in the way she did. So, either she goes around insulting things she doesn't like with completely unrelated adjectives, or she's going along with something she's been taught.

well. my opinion is that if they are cousins they should be able to marry and date and everything, but they would have to adopt a child because if they cross blood and have a baby then it might be deformed. its sad, i know its werid to date your cousin. but if you love someone then you should be able to be with them, even if they are your cousin

Originally Posted by Philomel

Yes, but I think you're missing my point. There are beliefs, and then there are things that are more determined by the culture you grow up in than any individual beliefs or opinions. A friend of mine would say that everything is a cultural construction. I don't know if I agree with that, but there's certainly a great deal that people simply accept as reality. Incest being gross is one of those things. There's no logical reason to describe it in the way she did. So, either she goes around insulting things she doesn't like with completely unrelated adjectives, or she's going along with something she's been taught.

Well perhaps I was a little out there with the first comment I made, and my greatest apologies. But you know what, I still say that I don't feel comfortable about the whole thing. Is there a problem with that.

I don't care what people want to do. And frankly, bringing up homosexuality and other topics has absolutely nothing to do with this debate.