I think, perhaps, she was using it as a buzz-word. She seems to have a vague understanding of it, but I think a better word to be used here is "conundrum." Though, "catch-22" could be appropriate in this sense.

At least she didn't call it 'irony.'

Well, a catch-22 is a concept that is in conflict with itself. She was talking about two different kinds of 'laws' that she perceives as in conflict with each other
-shrugs-

A catch 22 is when you are hanging from a ten story cliff without rope, and there's a ravenous bear both above and below you. no matter what you do you're screwed.

And yeah, a lot of people use it without knowing what it means. she is just arguing out her butt. Hit her with a fish.

I avoid hitting people fish mostly because I don't want to offend my Finnish friends.

Perhaps she meant that it was a Catch-22 in that, as a Christian, she is taught to both hate homosexuals for their sinning, but love them as 'thy neighbor,' since that is what the laws are based on by her argument.

Though, 'conundrum' would have been more appropriate, I think.

There really aren't any laws saying that you can't hate homosexuals, much in that there are no laws saying that you can't hate cats. Its when you start going out of your way to drown kittens in the park where people start stepping in. The rest of it is up to the individual.

Just so we are clear "Christians" are not ever taught to hate anybody. Churches tell people that because their leadership is composed of bigoted old jackwagons who don't take the time to analyze their holy text. God said to love people, and never ever judge them. People don't listen or forget that part, and frankly it's the essence of what being Christian is all about.

The levitical laws are meant to prevent disease. when I say that, remember that the verse specifically mentions men, and there was no such thing as a condom at the time.

Those laws also forbid bacon... tasty tasty bacon, And Tattoos, and for that matter sitting where a menstruating woman has sat. ...I think a lot of them are mostly outdated, and it's not God's fault. People refuse to understand the time they were meant for, and how much more dangerous it was.

Christians should love everybody all of the time, or call themselves something else, because they are not following the word of christ if they don't.

...And now to climb down from my mighty soapbox. lol.

Speaking of Scandinavia, and homosexuality. If you look at the world, it's really only the USA, and the Middle east that are so set against homosexuality. Eastern Europe is like very gay freindly for instance. They are also a less religious, which probaly has something to do with it. Sometimes I think I should just go live their as there won't be all those annoying Christian right.


Also calling "America" the symbol of freedom opsed to USA is ridiculous. What about South America, and the whole of North America which includes Canada.

sarofset, I was raised in the Church. I know that Christians aren't taught to hate anyone. But by her argument it is implied that Christians are. "Embrace homosexuality as a sin," to me, is hard not to read as "hate the homos." She seemed to be arguing that homosexuality is a choice, as it is with sinning in general. A sin is something that you have a choice over, but this is not the case. Now, when someone says to embrace something as a sin, they mean to fix it and make it right with God. But when something is unable to be fixed, it is no longer hate for the sin and more a misunderstood hate for the sinner for not choosing God over lusts of the flesh.

I didn't say that Christians hated anyone. I said that the way that she spoke it seemed like that was her argument for making it a Catch-22.

Coincidentally, I've heard fundamentalist Wiccans make similar statements.

Vgrace: Why do I get the feeling that you read Scandinavia and the World? xD

If you go over to Europe and say that you're from America, they'll ask you which continent. "America" just means "New World." I think that "the United States" more exemplifies the meaning of Freedom and Liberty than the name of the continents.

There are a few other countries that are dead-set against homosexuality (the Phillipines, for example, are quite against equal marriage) but religion does play a significant part in those countries. Though, sarofset makes a good point that the laws against equal marriage are based on hygiene rather than morality. So there are instances in third-world countries where that issue would arise. But that got lost along the way, I'm sure, and just became "gays are wrong."

I'm actually considering moving to Canada. Toronto is my favorite city so far that I have ever been to, and British Columbia is gorgeous. The only thing that's keeping me from just dropping everything and moving there is that they're reluctant to hire foreigners and I would have trouble finding a job unless I were to be hired in.

Also, just because marriage is legal doesn't mean that the stigma against same-sex couples doesn't still exist. Me and Liz would still be looked at a little sideways and we would have to show the same amount of caution as we do in Muncie if we were to away from a metropolan area.

I also totally just got that you're cosplaying Carmen SanDiego. xD

British Columbia ftw.
Ah, when you put it like that, Hyena, I could see the argument for it being a catch-22. Pity she didn't have the wherewithall to put it like that herself.

I don't know. Maybe I'm giving her too much credit. I like to assume that the people I'm debating with are at least as intelligent as me. >_>

Reading further in the argument:

Nor did I say that our oppression lessened yours, If you read my whole statement. I said that we have all paid our dues... and they come with time, and when there are enough people to recognize the injustice and fight it.

Seems a bit like backtracking to me, but she seemed to be trying to make the statement that gays weren't the only ones being oppressed. She didn't really respond to my reply, so I'm not going to push it. -shrug-

What I don't read web-comics. I don't know what you are talking about...

Thats true about some other countries. I was just trying making a general statement.

Yeah. I have this feeling that I would fit right in in Canada. I come from Michigan originaly so I don't think the weather would be to much of a problem...

Apparently there is a Carmen SanDiego game on face book. I am playing it right now. It's not amazing, but amuzes me so much. Ahh memories...

@Hyena: The stigma against couples of different "Races" existed quite prominently until my generation. Now I don't know anyone not old who gives a crap. The same will eventually be true of Same sex. In the mean time, you could be a trail blazer like so many others. Show the world that it doesn't matter what you are, but who you are when it comes to love. Sex, race, nationality, etc shouldn't matter.

They have never made a really good Carmen SanDieago game. It's sad really.

Yeah, but I really enjoyed the game show. Of course I can't remember if I actually saw it when it was on, or if it was a video tape... My memories are fuzzy for the most part.



Edit:

I get an odd sense of enjoyment labeling christain orinated ads on facebook as "offensive"

sarofset: not entirely sure where that came from, but racial differences in the States have a lot to do with region. When I lived in South Bend, there was absolutely no problem with mixed couples. In fact, I believe it was very hard to find couples that weren't. It was a matter of probability and the fact that it was a big college town.

But when I moved to Muncie, that became significantly different. South Bend is huge compared to Muncie. And while they're both college towns, there's a distinct difference between Muncie Proper (the college portion) and quite literally the other side of the tracks. There's still a lingering hint of the Klan influence, perhaps not to the point of monthly lynchings, but certainly indicating a significant amount of hostility. Regular protests on campus about allowing interracial couples to marry.

Some places are a little slow on the uptake. And those people who are protesting are part of my generation, whether I agree with them or not.

Vgrace: I'm from Northern Indiana, so there's not really much difference between me and a Canadian, anyhow. I already seem to have the accent... somehow. I mean... not that Canada isn't without their problems, but... every time I've gone for a visit I was sad to leave. Toronto seems to be about the right size of city for me.

@ Butterfly: Lol. I don't have Facebook, so I don't know anything about the advertising there. But that does indeed sound satisfying.

Facebook ads are kind of benign to me. Unless one of them is about cheap bellydancing gear. Then I'm like.... "CLICK!"

I ignore them for the most part. Some are annoying.

@Hyena: You bellydance? I have a friend out here who teaches it. :)

I've been a bellydancer for about... since freshman year in high school, so... eight-ish years?

Shiny. It's great exercise, and frankly almost nothing is hotter. just sayin. lol.

Huh. Maybe I should try finding some bellydancing lessons. Provided i can ever find my stinking rhythm!

@ Hyena: I love you. Seems whenever you're on really interesting conversations start, and I just love reading them.

@ Vgrace: :lol: Nice! A shame I can't do that with the christian ads on TV.....

...Mkay. Guys. I'm Christian. I get that you're not, and don't care and all, but can we tone it down? Target a specific group or something? Because when you say Christians it hits me too. I don't mean to complain, or whine it's just... you know. If I said stuff about any group that covered you, it would probably bug you after a bit.

Hyena is capable of the most intriguing posts, it is true :yes:
:D

Indeed. I do enjoy our conversations. :) You are a most interesting human being. :)

@ sarof: you are? I never noticed, to be honest. Then again, I really suck at pegging religions....:sweat:

To be honest, I really don't care what anyone's religion is, just as long as they don't try to force it on me. The moment a person tries forcing their religion on me, I really start to like them less and less. I've got a couple friends in RL who are Christian (one's Catholic), and they really don't bug me because they don't force their religion. That, and like the rest of my friends--which are a medly of just about everything--they're complete nerds. In other words, no problems here.

Then again, while my dad (like me) was baptized Episcopalian, he's been to synagogues (can't spell it! ><; ), mosques (can't spell that either), I think a Buddhist temple, and if you name a denomination of Christianity, he's been a part of it--except for a few, which I can't remember. He's at least a former Mason, and him, me, and my mom are all presently part of a Unitarian Universalist church in my hometown, which is mainly Catholic and Prodestant...bad combination. Seems that everyone who's either agnostic, wicca, or any other religion is a member of that church. I've been to just about every church in my home area, and I geniunly really like the UUs. I'm not saying all Christians are bad, I'm just saying that the fact that our present society is so inundated with Christians who believe that everyone else is wrong is plain ridiculous. Wasn't the US started on the idea of "freedom of religion"? And that goes for other religions as well.

I really hope that doesn't sound like a bunch of nonsensical babbling.

Aw, you weren't babbling, Taiyo -pets- I really liked your post. So 21st century tolerance. We need more of that.

You got that right. Here's my little cirlce of friends:
-A Jehova's Witness
-A Wiccan girl
-A "goth" (I'm not entirely sure if that labels suits her to be honest...) girl who is probably the zen of the group
-Me, the sarcastic asshole
-A girl who used to go to a Catholic high school, but switched to mine because it was too strict and they wouldn't let her voice her opinions on class, because they were too "radical". Ptui.
-A small girl who's got a REALLY dirty mind and has a nerdiness level of infinity
-A girl who was raised in a Christian household but really doesn't have a religion. She "goes through the motions" so that her family doesn't completely freak
-A guy who's religion is probably anime
-A guy who's most likely agnostic, but I don't know for sure
-A gay dude who looks way better than most straight guys--and he's hilarious
-A football player who's now majoring in either physics or engineering and a gamer and anime nut
-A guy who's as much a gamer and anime nut as the football player
-A black girl who wants to be a Marine
-There's an athiest in there somewhere
-And one of these people is bi. Plus, I'm not sure about my own sexuality either.....

Add this to the fact that my mom does research on a variety of subjects, including religion, ancient history, and mythology (among others) as a hobby, and my dad who's been all over the place when it comes to different denominations of Christianity and visited different religions. And a friend of the family--and member of my church--is the local Wiccan priestess...I think at least. Now, what does that say about me?