Everyone has kinks, I get that, but something about Yaoi specifically rubs me the wrong way: It's just terribly voyeuristic in my mind, to the point of outsider fetishistic. Why do I say 'outsider'? Because the majority of Yaoi is written and consumed by straight women. One of the posters on the first page mentioned gay pride. But really, how is it celebrating pride, which is personal, if it is being produced by other groups? It's good to be a supporter of gay rights, and if this opens eyes, great, but if that's coming largely from a place of an interest in Yaoi, isn't that in part because... you find it, and by extension them, entertaining? And supporting a group for entertainment values isn't a great reason to support them.

I like the sensitive romance in yoai that most (not all) normal manga don't have~

anyone a fan of bara yaoi?

I find that the romance in Yaoi is less angsty despite the stress of the relationships in many of them. I like that. I don't really see Yaoi as Kinky(in general) or even the people who read it. As for Bara. . . Hmmmm. . . . .I think I've read maybe one or two, but my physical preference run more towards the sleek look of Yaoi.

Well, I suppose I think of it as a kink because with the audience being generally straight women, it would be outside of the things that would generally "appeal" to them. Things that fall into that category fall under the auspices of kinks.

Cardinal Biggles:


This is from my sister: As a strait female, I must disagree on your point for the simple fact that I like men. When looking up such kinds of entertainment for myself, I much prefer to look at men over looking at a man with a woman. I do not enjoy the female form in that fashion, so something that can show me only men and also have a heat, passion, and romance behind it is much preferable over having to gaze upon a form I do not find appealing.

I didn't quite understand the first few sentences, but I get where she is coming from with this:

Something that can show me only men and also have a heat, passion, and romance behind it is much preferable over having to gaze upon a form I do not find appealing.

Though... there is an element of pursuing voyeuristic titillation there too. You are looking in on this scene, and saying "This (in this case, the female form) is a turn off to me." A lot of this is down to the physical medium, you can't help but be outside looking in, removed from it. I just can't relate to that way of getting enjoyment out of something so intimate.

Cardinal Biggles:

Sis: By your own words it sounds as if you disapprove of all forms of teen/adult entertainment involving intimacy.

I just can't relate to that way of getting enjoyment out of something so intimate.

a) I said I couldn't relate, not that I disapproved.
b) Actually it's the opposite. The fact that it is intimate, but is so removed from what the target audience is what is weird to me.

Cardinal Biggles:


Sis: I don't see it "Removed" at all. When checking out a hot guy, does your heart go up or down when you see him standing next to a hot girl? 98% of girls will have a down swoop. So, by removing the girl from the picture, the enjoyment of the man is a more full and rich experience. I can understand that by taking a girl out of the act removes the feminine element to a scene, however by doing so, it adds to the female's enjoyment, most of the time.

Okay, you say that if you remove the (female) standing next to the man, your desire goes up again, yes? The initial down turn in desire has to do with someone being there next to them, making them unavailable, in that explanation. Yaoi doesn't just remove the woman, getting the obstacle out of the way. It inserts a man instead. The implication here is that that man/man isn't a threat to the prospects of the desiring woman. I don't see how that supports claim of appreciating the pairing for what it is.

Cardinal Biggles:


Sis: No no no, you're missing the point. The woman next to the man doesn't make one swing down because it means they are unavailable, it's just a natural biological reaction that has been hammered into woman over the years through movies and personal experiences. When it comes to woman, and this has been proven, we are more stimulated by the things we can make up in our minds than the stuff we see with our eyes. So, seeing two men together, just as a couple, spurs on a woman's imagination to see these guys in states of undress and intimate actions, with no female in the picture to insert in that natural jealousy woman feel around one another. In porn, a man imagines himself with the pretty girl on the screen, while females are more likely to close their eyes and imagine their ideal men in poses and situations they enjoy. It is more the sight of the man's body, and the romance behind the acts in Yaoi that is stimulating for both body and heart than the fact that they are being intimate.

Okay, if you are just attracted to the male body you are seeing, and you like depictions of intimacy, of course you want something that fulfills those need. But separating those things from the story of the relationship between the two men seems like a stretch. Especially when this sentence is in the mix:

no female in the picture to insert in that natural jealousy woman feel around one another

It's along the lines of what I was talking about. You are saying that the you are unhappy the fact that there is someone with the one you feel attracted too, yes? I can't think of any other reason to be jealous in that situation. But there is someone with them. It just happens to be a man. I don't understand why it would be easier to project yourself onto what one man is experiencing at the hands of the other, than it would be to project yourself onto what is happening to the woman at the hands of the man, if that is all there is to it. I mean, what's going on between the two men is spelled out, there's no more need for imagination than with a heterosexual act. You're contorting yourself to replace what is actually going on.

And you don't have to ping me each time, we are in an active conversation :)

EDIT: I added a sentence onto the end there. Finally found the words I was looking for.

But separating those things from the story of the relationship between the two men seems like a stretch.

The point is not separating it out, in fact that defeats the purpose entirely. It is because they are in the relationship, are hot, and males, that brings about the response. It's the whole package.

You are saying that the you are unhappy the fact that there is someone with the one you feel attracted too, yes?

No. Without the female there, there is no jealousy for the most part. The fact that they are gay removes yourself from the picture anyways, so in fact it takes out all need for feeling jealous. By there being NO chance of being with the guys, you can just sit back and enjoy the view, rather than wishing "Oh man, if only that were me." If they are with a girl, you wish you were in the girl's place, but if it's a guy, you just wanna watch.

I don't understand why it would be easier to project yourself onto what one man is experiencing at the hands of the other, than it would be to project yourself onto what is happening to the woman at the hands of the man, if that is all there is to it?

I think I covered this above for the most part, but let me see if I can expand on that. When reading/watching Yaoi, I am in no way projecting myself into the scene, be it the love scene, or the romance leading up to it. I am feeling right along with all the characters involved, and letting the experience flow through me, rather than sculpting myself into it as one of the characters. When I watch the love scenes, I am experiencing all of what's happening, rather than just what one character is going through. If one of the partners is a girl, it's a natural urge to pretend to be the girl, but when you are watching two men, it allows for a more full experience. Also, unlike strait up Hentai, you can draw from the prior romance, and the characters themselves have in mind commentary describing what's going on in their hearts during the act. True, some Shojou pull off that last part nicely, but over all it's Yaoi that has perfected the art of making intimacy less about the physical act, and more about the true emotions behind it.

I mean, what's going on between the two men is spelled out, there's no more need for imagination than with a heterosexual act. You're contorting yourself to replace what is actually going on.

I get the feeling that your imagination doesn't expand and flourish around things the way mind does. Yeah, it's sex, the act is the same world wide, but it's not about the sex. It's about what you make of the entire thing. As for contorting myself. . . I don't quite get that, unless you mean pretending to be a guy. . . .In which there is a whole another discussion I could bring up around that, but I'll just say here; I think I'd make a hot guy.

I'm using a lot of "You"s in this, but I mean it in the generic sense, not applying it to you personally. Except when those sentence address the content and back and forth of this conversation.

It is because they are in the relationship, are hot, and males, that brings about the response. It's the whole package.

But... this is the thing that smacks of voyeurism to me. This is what I am talking about

By there being NO chance of being with the guys, you can just sit back and enjoy the view, rather than wishing "Oh man, if only that were me." If they are with a girl, you wish you were in the girl's place, but if it's a guy, you just wanna watch.

this is something I've been trying to talk about too. You're drawn to it because you don't feel threatened or jealous. Is that any reason to be appreciate a story? And just "wanting to watch" That's the voyeurism. It's down to interpretation, but it's why I'm turned off by Yaoi.

I am feeling right along with all the characters involved, and letting the experience flow through me, rather than sculpting myself into it as one of the characters. When I watch the love scenes, I am experiencing all of what's happening, rather than just what one character is going through.

Yes, that's how love stories are viewed, in their ideal form. I just don't understand why it's viewed as an absolute that you can only experience that with Yaoi. And while I'm going to apply this to my larger experience of those who enjoy Yaoi, and not so much your arguments here, most of the yaoi fangirls I've run into only, at best, rate the romance as being as appealing as the sexy times, not more appealing.

If one of the partners is a girl, it's a natural urge to pretend to be the girl

I don't deny that this happens, that's why I've been saying that that's what I've been picking up on in your claims. But I also have always felt that it's just as easy not to do that, if the characters stand alone as individuals. But, it wouldn't be the first time that I've experienced things differently than others. Maybe the filling-yourself-in is how people are supposed to be experiencing stories.

And you've hit on something there. I don't go full imagination when I'm reading, as I said above. I watch the characters, and their development, in terms of path dictated by their character flaws, strengths, and personalities. I want to see what they do, what the author has in store for them. I don't really try to "make it" into anything. This also probably goes into why I'm not much for developing headcannons.

When I said contorting yourself, I meant sort of erasing the story out of your experience of reading, and just using the raw materials as fantasy fodder. Which you aren't doing directly, it seems. Though I would claim that you are saying that these things do serve a purpose of titillation.

But... this is the thing that smacks of voyeurism to me.

Voyeurism  

noun
The practice of obtaining sexual gratification by looking at sexual objects or acts, especially secretively.

If what bothers you about Yaoi is the Voyeuristic nature of the story, does this mean that you are also bothered by any and all love making with all other couple types? Or is it just Yaoi?

You're drawn to it because you don't feel threatened or jealous. Is that any reason to be appreciate a story?

Why, yes. Jealousy is a negative emotion and while some negative emotions are useful to plot development and interactions between the characters, removing my own negative emotions towards a fictional female enhances the experience for me.

And just "wanting to watch" That's the voyeurism. It's down to interpretation, but it's why I'm turned off by Yaoi.

All forms of adult entertainment involving scenes of intimacy are Voyeurism. Does this mean all sex scenes turn you off? I'm just curious. I've met some people who are like that and it confuses me.

Yes, that's how love stories are viewed, in their ideal form. I just don't understand why it's viewed as an absolute that one can only experience that with Yaoi.

I've never said it can only be experienced with Yaoi. I will say that for the most part Yaoi authors have a better handle on such things, but I have a Shojou collection I enjoy just as much as my Yaoi. Sensual Phrase, Vampire Game, and MARS are just a few that manage to pull off the relationships in a way that doesn't bring up jealousy and actually has me rooting for the romances therein.

And while I'm going to apply this to my larger experience of those who enjoy Yaoi, and not so much your arguments here, most of the yaoi fangirls I've run into only, at best, rate the romance as being as appealing as the sexy times, not more appealing.

That sounds as if you've spoken mostly to what we True Yaoi Fangirls refer to as "Rabid Yaoi Fangirls" They are a different breed, and tend to be between the ages of 14-19. I myself am 28 and have had the time to more fully appreciate and analyze my own love and passion for the genre. I'm not saying there aren't girl my age who are still in the "Rabid" faze, however the "Rabid" faze seems to die down around mid 20s to early 30s at the latest. There are, of course, exceptions. There are also the girls out there that simply use Yaoi as their porn. These are also not considered True Yaoi Fans, but are likened to guys who enjoy watching two girls have sex "Because it's hot". Know what I mean?

Maybe the filling-yourself-in is how people are supposed to be experiencing stories.

I think that each individual person has their own way of enjoying something, and while it may be different from the way the people around them are enjoying it, it doesn't make them wrong. True, some people get the most enjoyment from reading a book by imagining themselves as the hero, saving the day! While the person next to them could love the book just as much and imagines they were a fly on the wall to all these happenings. Still another person could appreciate the book because they feel it is an honor to get a little peek into a world outside this reality and has fun making up their own stories that take place there, with their own characters. There are many other ways to enjoy such things, and I don't think any of them are "The right way" just as non of them are "The wrong way" either.

I watch the characters, and their development, in terms of path dictated by their character flaws, strengths, and personalities. I want to see what they do, what the author has in store for them. I don't really try to "make it" into anything.

And that's the way your mind works, and there's nothing wrong with that. I can see how this prolly makes enjoying Yaoi hard though. The only other thing I can think to say about that was addressed above about Voyeurism. Is it the fact that the love making is so prominently a part of the story, and the fact that you find such things voyeuristic, the reason you find it so unappealing? There are several Yaoi/Shounen-ai out there that have little to no sex in them that you may be able to enjoy if this is the case.

When I said contorting yourself, I meant sort of erasing the story out of your experience of reading, and just using the raw materials as fantasy fodder. Which you aren't doing directly, it seems. Though I would claim that you are saying that these things do serve a purpose of titillation.

You're right, I am not erasing the story. In fact, when I fantasize(Personally), I work my way around the plot and do my best to keep everything intact. I try not to change the world more than necessary. My fantasies can go on for several nights like a story before any intimacy happens. And it's that story that makes the finished product so amazing to me. Rather than just imagining myself with the guy/s I liked in any given story(Not just Yaoi, but Het as well) I like to take a journey to reach the place where the act would be most meaningful, and it's through my love of Yaoi that I've been able to shape better stories for these treks. I'm not trying to make is sound like Yaoi is always better than Het, but for most of the Het I've seen with intimacy of any kind in it, seems to be shallow, or goofy, or filled with the guy getting smacked around because he accidentally saw the chick naked. . . . Yaoi tends not to have these things that detract from the warm feelings, and yes, I find that titillating, but not in a perverted fashion. Yaoi tends to represent how a true romance could be, and yeah, even the artists themselves say "I know it's unrealistic and often times too perfect, but hey, it's my fantasy so why not make it perfect?"

So, I guess, to sum it up: Yes, I am stimulated by the sex aspect, without the well sculpted stories and characters, and worlds made by the artists, it would just be smut. And while a good smut here and there is entertaining, Yaoi isn't about that, it's about love.


*Off subject*

I run into a lot of idiots on the internet with whom I get into arguments/debates with and end up a frustrated mess. I like arguing/debating, but not with idiots. You, are not an idiot. I like this chat we are having and I would like to thank you for the stimulating conversation. *Bows*

I agree, it's been a very enjoyable and amicable conversation.

I don't really feel like I need to comment on much, I think a lot of it just comes down to our personal takes on these things. It is interesting to me how it seems like we are dealing with extremes here. "teh hotz" and "something that channels and reflects the human experience." Not saying we're vacillating between between the two to no effect, they do seem to meet up in this territory. But it was weird to have them both play so strongly without contradicting themselves.

No, not all sex scenes turn me off. Nor does any specific formula turn me on. I suppose why it comes into play is that I find it strange that this, which is something that young women seem to get violently attached to, is so far out of their experience and never will be part of it. It's the gap between the two that feels weird to me, and I end up deeming voyeuristic. But the people that this is true for most strongly will be the rabids. It's just in their nature, and there's not a lot of logic on their part behind it. But I still find it alienating, that reaction to it.

I have met many a person who has met a Rabid before any other kind of fan of the genre, and for the most part they reacted much like you do. It makes me think of that phrase "_____ make us all look bad" you know?


I also agree that it does come down to the individual and how each of of views not only the world around us or the people in it, but the worlds laid out for us by the amazing people know as authors. Enjoyment of such things should never be judged, nor feel the need to be defended or even defined. The opposite is also true. I do not think that one should have to defend the dislike or disinterest they have for something. True, questions why someone likes/dislikes something can lead to interesting conversations, fun debates, and the occasional changed mind, I believe that such interactions can only be enjoyable if approached with an open mind and thoughtfulness.

I appreciate that at no point did you say "I don't like it so stop trying to change my mind" or something of the like, but rather took what I said and from what I read, actually tried to take my words seriously and gave me intelligent responses. I still kinda question how you said you don't like voyeurism and yet not all voyeurism turns you off, but I digress. This was enjoyable. Care to be friends?

I wouldn't say not all voyeurism turns me off. It's just that I find the at-odds nature of the demographic and subject matter made it something noticeable to me. The fact that it can take on such a fetishistic tone that I've seen people say "I'm gay friendly! I love Yaoi!" or "I support gay marriage! I want my OTPs to get married!" Making these important issues about them, and their gratification, you know? That brings the negative aspects of the thing to forefront, and makes me comment on it. It's just a matter of me not picking up on it in the same way in other cases, I think.

Of course, I love making new friends :)

I must agree that it's silly for people to lump the love of Yaoi in with supporting the gay movements. However I must say that when it comes to OTPs, for the most part it's not about self gratification, but more about believing that the people in the OTP would be happier with one another than in any other coupling. It's thinking of the character's happiness. Or at least, that's how it is for me :P

There's something to that. It's less "gratification" in the loaded sense, and more something that would give a purehearted joy to the shipper if it happened, even if they are fictional. Though given how attached people get to their OTPs, some even venturing into fights and vitriol, there it seems to be taken personally. Less on the purehearted side when it comes to that

Yeah. Extremists are never a pretty sight. Now, if I was having a heated debate with someone over a character whom I thought should go with one person while the person I was debating with thought they should go with another, in those cases I find the all out riots coming from those are just fun, as long as neither side is actually getting angry. It's like when you call your best friend a name, they know you don't really mean to insult them and call you a name right back. I think that's how all OTP arguments should be carried out, in the spirit of friendly debate! No one taking offence over what's said :P

I agree. It's fine to let your passions inspire you, and your claims, but that vitriol never gets you anywhere, nor is it really good for you, on a larger scale.

I wouldn't consider myself "rabid," I only go for the story and art. I love a good story, and Yaoi seems to be the only romance I can stand. I can't stand to read a story about M/F, because normally, things happen to the girl, and I feel bad for her. I can't enjoy the story if I feel bad for a character. One story I am reading has rape, and I do not condone it. There was like two rape scenes, and I was turned off by it. Putting a character through that is vile. I understand that they are not real, but it still hurts. The story and art are top notch, and I'm trying to see where the story goes. I'm hoping that there aren't any more rape scenes. If there are, I'm going to stop reading.

Like I posted before, if the story and art are not very good, I'm not sticking around.
Yes, nobody really knows about my love for Yaoi, except for the people I talk to online. I am afraid I will be seen differently. My mother is not very accepting of gay love, and my MiL is just judgemental in general. Hubby, well, is hubby. It is my secret, and I revel in it.

I will continue to enjoy good Yaoi while I can.

I'm curious to know what genre of M/F you are reading. I'm not trying to be a great champion of the male female dynamic, but I keep seeing "I can't read hetero pairings" and wonder what has gone so wrong with them that a section of readers can't handle them. And if things like rape of women, and a default passive position, have become common in all genres then whoa, something very, very rotten is happening in contemporary lit.