So one of my classes centers around human development. We're just starting with the baby & toddler ages, and it's gotten me thinking. One thing that bothered me about my household is that I knew very little about the world outside our home and house-church. I grew to love my parents' faith- or at least the basics- but my sisters went a different path. And because we three are so different from Mom and Dad, there is a bit of a gap of understanding and some resentment at them keeping us "sheltered" for so long.

I would love for my child to share my morals and beliefs, but I don't want to force those beliefs on them- and that's rather difficult if you take your child to church and they hear "The only right path is with Jesus!". I mean I could just not take my child to church, but I love church. And it usually is a rather good environment. Though if they get to an age of understanding- sometime after they start school- and decide they no longer want to go then that's fine. But I don't want them to feel like they're gonna be left out of something if they don't believe the same way others around them do.

Ideally, I want to surround my children with varied experiences from birth- or from adoption if I adopt a baby. (If I adopt an older child, then they're most likely already at the age where they have some of their own opinions and this sort of thing either won't be necessary or won't work.) I'd like to be able to pass them around to friends who live differently and speak different languages. My sister is rather fluent in French so I could definitely expose them to that. But Spanish would also be good, and any other languages. And even though I myself am Christian, I'd like to take them to other religious centers such as a Mosque, a temple or two, and events for children that involve a good bit of science just in case the child decides that there is no divine power in their life.

What do you think Menewshians? Is there such a thing as too much exposure? How badly do you want your children to share your views? Would it be so bad if they decided to believe differently?

I would be quite interested to know how it is that expanded families perform when it comes to the enculturation and socialization of children. It would, in some ways, like your ideal incorporate multiple adults taking key roles in the lives of the young. However I would prefer a more stable location where they share residence. I am quite fond of your idea about introducing children to cross cultural experiences as this can show a lot of promise. My approach of course is hardly a novel one and has been argued for in Euroamerican culture for some time and to various degrees variants have been present in other cultures. I would be interested in how it functions in contemporary 'Euroamerican society'.

I don't necessarily want the village to raise my child nor do I want to hide that child away from it. I think there's a important middle-ground. Do I want my child to carry on with my views, follow my morals, and for all intensive purposes become me? Of course, but that's a selfishly impossible notion.

More often than not the views of a society differ, collide, and following the masses is commonplace. More often than not the views and principles of society at large are a muddled mess. Of course I want my child to become apart of society, learn of other cultures, and participate in society because that's a healthy thing. I'm not going to lock them under the baseboards!

There's one thing the schools won't teach my child and I doubt society as a whole will either; that's to question and assess. I want to teach my child to create sound beliefs that they can defend. I want them to be confidant in their beliefs because they used sound methodology to support those beliefs. Again, this is something I doubt society at large will teach my children.

Society has a lot to offer. It's important to be integrated into it, to learn about other cultures, to learn of their principles, their beliefs, and to get along with everyone in a respectable manner. As a parent I believe my greatest responsibility it teaching my children how to think for themselves.

I think in a sense it does take a village to raise a child but there are some things I don't trust the village to teach my child and that's the tools and mechanisms for thinking logically.

Doesn't this also include the nature vs. nurture debate? But I honestly think it's important to let the child at least see the village. They don't have to be raised by it, but they can know there are other opinions, religions, families, etc out there. My parents were definitely non-traditional. Most of the families I grew up around in school were religion. Either Catholic, Christian, or Lutheran. Most of them went to church on Sundays and got "confirmed" (I still don't know what the hell that means exactly). I never did. My parents never forced me to go to church. They never said I had to go, and I didn't. My parents believe in God, though I'm not entirely sure what religion they would classify themselves as. But because my parent's friends were not all the same as my friend's parents, I got to see that not everyone in the world goes to church on Sundays. And that's okay.

But, it's also important to show them the village idiots, so they learn from it. My little sister just learned that stealing was wrong. How? Because someone she knew got arrested (he's an adult, my mother's friend) for stealing from the grocery store. It was someone she knew as a friend, as an older person to be a guardian, and he got in trouble for doing something wrong. We told her what he did, and that it was wrong, and she understood. Rather than have her go out and get arrested and learn from her OWN mistakes (which, is also important, but it's nicer when someone else does it xD), she can learn from someone else's mistake too.

Your child will have their own beliefs. They may not coincide with your own. And that's okay. They are their own person.

Originally Posted by Crimson Fang

I would be quite interested to know how it is that expanded families perform when it comes to the enculturation and socialization of children...However I would prefer a more stable location where they share residence.

This would be ideal, yes, and the best setting would most likely be a number of families who stayed in one apartment complex. All the neighbors know one another and the children are in and out of all the households all the time. Sleeping over here, eating dinner there, and of course the adults spend time with one another constantly as well. That way the parents are aware of what their children are up to, but they also allow the children to do their own thing and have individual and unique experiences.
There's also the idea that some girl friends and I had one time: we all could invest in owning a hotel. It would be a three-family business. The husbands and wives all help to run the place, and a part of the hotel/inn would be reserved for the owners' families. The children would grow up in a varied environment but could also be under watch for safety.

Originally Posted by admonished nonsense

I don't necessarily want the village to raise my child...I think there's a important middle-ground.

True, true, they do need a "home base" persay.

Originally Posted by admonished nonsense

There's one thing the schools won't teach my child and I doubt society as a whole will either; that's to question and assess...I don't trust the village to teach my child...the tools and mechanisms for thinking logically.

There's a short story this reminds me of written by Charles Baxter titled Gryphon. The point of the story is that the school system- at least in America- does not challenge you to think. Even in some of my college classes, the students seem to still be under the ideology of "listen, memorize, recite, repeat". And I agree that it is important to teach your children at least the basics of logical thinking and argument.

Originally Posted by PWEEP

Most of them went to church on Sundays and got "confirmed" (I still don't know what the hell that means exactly)

Basically, the child becomes a certain age where the church believes they have "matured" enough to choose to believe in God. The child shows proof of their faith in the presence of the church- usually accompanied by a baptism or going through classes- and the church accepts as a whole that the child is a part of the body of Christ. Think of it as a "coming of age" ceremony within the church. I've never done that myself, but friends who are Catholic and Lutherin have done it and this is what I got from hearing about their experiences.

Originally Posted by PWEEP

But, it's also important to show them the village idiots, so they learn from it.

I whole heartedly concure.

----

All of your points are well made and I thank your for making them. I would like to expand this into a broader spectrum using a quote from an earlier response.

Originally Posted by Crimson Fang

I am quite fond of your idea about introducing children to cross cultural experiences as this can show a lot of promise. My approach of course is hardly a novel one and has been argued for in Euroamerican culture for some time and to various degrees variants have been present in other cultures. I would be interested in how it functions in contemporary 'Euroamerican society'.

I'd never heard of the term Euro-American before so I wikied it. (It's the new google for definitions I swear.) From there I was reminded that this is also related to the terms Asian-American and African-American and simply relates to a person's ancestory. Now, being that I myself was raised in a Euro-American household- or at least I assume that since the best way to describe my family is "white, southern, Christian" although not "red neck"- I don't have much of an understanding of how other households are run. I've had a peak at a few, but never really lived with any other families long enough. I've heard things-from friends and the general rumor mill- but never seriously looked at any "natural observation studies" on the subject persay.
How are your family experiences different from the usual "Euro-American" standard? And I'm not talking about the differences that have become so common place now-a-days such as divorce and step family. I mean perhaps friends living with the family, relatives outside of the immediate family- or maybe it was even that your parents didn't exactly raise you as much as your friends did. I find that more and more common place if only for the sole reason that Mom and Dad work so much and let electronics babysit the kids most of the time.
I'm gonna message a few users who always seem to have something interesting to say on a topic, and see if they can key in on this conversation as well.
Responses Menewsha?

I think that it's better to expose a child to many different ways of life so that they know that not everyone has to believe the same way. I think that the amount of exposure depends on the age of the child and what they can understand at what age. Somethings are just hard to explain to a small child. In general though I don't think there's such a thing as too much exposure.

Originally Posted by Mystic

I think that the amount of exposure depends on the age of the child and what they can understand at what age. Somethings are just hard to explain to a small child.

I can understand this a bit, taking a class in psychology right now that focuses on human growth and development. But how exactly do you tell what things are too hard to explain? And if your child is exposed to something "too early" how do you deal with that without just trying to hide its existance from your child?

Originally Posted by AmyHeartXVIII

There's also the idea that some girl friends and I had one time: we all could invest in owning a hotel. It would be a three-family business. The husbands and wives all help to run the place, and a part of the hotel/inn would be reserved for the owners' families. The children would grow up in a varied environment but could also be under watch for safety.

How much variance is there in the cultural background between yourself and your friends? As it could be incredibly fascinating to see how the shared culture is negotiated in such a setting. The manner in which the hotel is marketed could also be incredibly helpful as it would potentially help to draw in wider cultural input that we would not otherwise see. It could even function as a two way street. For instance it could provide assistance to international students or refugees when it comes to feeling a sense of belonging in the community.

Originally Posted by AmyHeartXVIII

Think of it as a "coming of age" ceremony within the church. I've never done that myself, but friends who are Catholic and Lutherin have done it and this is what I got from hearing about their experiences.

This would be the communion if I am not mistaken. Back in the eighteenth century when I was a young fellow, I was going through my own communion. I didn't end up completing it however. I can't entirely recall why it was that I stopped midway. Either way this was the beginning of the end for me identifying as Roman Catholic.

Originally Posted by AmyHeartXVIII

I'd never heard of the term Euro-American before so I wikied it. (It's the new google for definitions I swear.) From there I was reminded that this is also related to the terms Asian-American and African-American and simply relates to a person's ancestory.

It is not too surprising as it can be more of an esoteric concept. In retropsect I should have been less ambiguous and simply used the term "Western." That being said, the understanding which you presented was pretty spot on. It is a good thing that your interpretation skills are enough to compensate for my lack of communication skills. ;)

In using it, I had in mind the 'Western' understanding of what a family is. Namely a nuclear family which consists of two parents and their children. Cross culturally, and historically, we find that this is a very peculiar and unusual way to structure familial relations. You have essentially identified a significant part of what I was referring to when you referred to extended families. Although if you are curious I would be happy to provide some cross cultural examples demonstrating how it can differ.

Originally Posted by AmyHeartXVIII

How are your family experiences different from the usual "Euro-American" standard?

Mine did not sufficiently differ from the ideal Western Standard to be of interest. ;p

Originally Posted by Crimson Fang

For instance it could provide assistance to international students or refugees when it comes to feeling a sense of belonging in the community.

Now THAT sounds like an awesome idea!

Originally Posted by Crimson Fang

Although if you are curious I would be happy to provide some cross cultural examples demonstrating how it can differ.

Please do.

Originally Posted by AmyHeartXVIII

Now THAT sounds like an awesome idea!

Yeah, when I was thinking about you implementing such an idea I was getting more than a little excited. The way in which it holds potential to be of such benefit to everyone involved is really nice.

Originally Posted by AmyHeartXVIII

Please do.

I would firstly just briefly highlight that even within the nuclear set-up of two parents with children there is plenty of variability. For instance Malinowski observed that it is not what we would class as the father who serves the disciplinary role but rather the uncle among the Trobrianders. Kinship models are also models at that and do not reflect the complexity and variance of how people live within any culture or society. Even within our societies which greatly emphasize biological relatedness and two parent families we find single parent households, step parents, adopted children etc. I don't want this clarifier to come off as being offensive or patronizing. It is more so I don't come off as presenting a hopelessly simplified and reductionist account of cultural difference.

One example which is commonly cited would be the Hawaiian model. In this system it is determined based on generation and gender. As opposed to simply addressing one person as father and one as mother, you would address all the females in the same generation of what we would consider your mother as mother and the same for the males. This is actually the first kinship system which came to mind when I saw the title for your thread. As typically societies which implement this system have a value of sharing the care of the youth.

Among them people in the Tanimbar island there is a special way of relating open to the males. They can enter into what is referred to as an elder-younger brother relationship with people whom we would not consider them to be related to. When one of these men has children, not only does the brother become the child's father as well but his wife becomes the child's other mother.

Originally Posted by Crimson Fang

Yeah, when I was thinking about you implementing such an idea I was getting more than a little excited. The way in which it holds potential to be of such benefit to everyone involved is really nice.

I was actually thinking about the idea this morning and almost slapped myself in the forehead for not bringing foreth another idea until now: a mansion. All the occupants could work together to bring in the neccessary income and do the necessary chores. This is sort of like the co-housing in places such as Denmark and NewYork, but substituting the apartment idea for wings in a mansion.

And I greatly appreciated your input about different family systems in other societies. I think it's sad how nuclear families such as the one I grew up in are rather dry in the culture area.

Interesting! I don't want to shelter my future kids, but at the same time I wonder if I might have trouble with "the village" imposing values on my kids that I don't necessarily agree with.

This is something that I think about occasionally since I'm considering settling down in a country that is very different from my homeland (the US). I've lived in Japan for the last few years and really love it, but I'm uncertain about my future. While I'm comfortable with my identity as a blonde, blue-eyed foreigner, I'm not sure if I would be happy raising kids here knowing they'll always be "foreign" to some degree. If I do decide to marry a Japanese guy and settle down here, then I worry that my parenting ideas and values will be at odds with what "the village" considers normal.

I respect and agree with a lot of Japanese culture norms, but I worry that finding a balance at home might be difficult. It's important to me that my children grow up speaking English fluently, for example, but that's easier said than done, especially if I marry someone who isn't fluent. I'd like to introduce Christian stories and values to them, but don't plan to force it upon them. Most of all, I'd like them to embrace their dual heritage, rather than being resentful of only being half Japanese.

An understanding spouse would be the key to making that happen. That's why I'd have to make a trip to America with a guy before I could marry him. I think he'd need to see where I came from for himself so we could really understand and respect each other's values. As long as we maintain good communication, I think we could make it work.

But anyway, that's getting waaay ahead of myself. I have at least a few more years before I need to worry about it.

Ferra,

That's the thing about the village idea, your kids get inputs of many different values. They hear yours at home, and others with various villagers. And raising children to be fluently bilingual is rather simple if started at birth. For instance, say you marry a Japanese man who also speaks English. You speak to the children only in English, have your husband speak to them only in Japanese. Then speak to each other sometimes in Japenese, sometimes in English. That way the children will learn both equally and efficiently. Contrary to popular belief, this will not confuse the children at all if they are raised this way.

The most effective way to encourage your children to embrace a duel heritage is to embrace it yourself. If they see you participating in both the culture of your adopted and native lands, they're more likely to follow in your footsteps. That is, as long as you don't force it upon them. Forcing anything upon children in the realm of morals, values, and ideas is more likely to cause them to balk and go the exact opposite way. (Example: the stereotypical pastor's kid)

I'm not a parent myself, I only know what I've learned via my own experience as a child and what I've learned in psychology. But I think these points at least make a little sense. If you weren't looking for advice, my apologies. Couldn't help myself. XD

Naw, thanks for the advice! I appreciate the input.

But I'm not sure the "village" idea works as well in a country that is largely mono-cultural. There's not a whole lot of diversity in Japan compared to a country like America and most people pride themselves in their Japanese identity. The main reason Japanese schools hire foreigners like me is because they want to expose kids to other cultures since they'd likely never interact with non-Japanese people otherwise.

Language acquisition is a bit more complicated than that, unfortunately. I agree that speaking English at home from a young age would enable them to speak English pretty well, but that does nothing for their reading and writing abilities since they wouldn't learn that at school. I'd have to tutor them myself or find some other way to provide English education to compensate. Also, there's no guarantee I'll marry a guy who's fluent in English. Half of the men I've dated here barely speak English at all since I speak enough Japanese to communicate.

I agree that forcing morals or ideas on kids is wrong and usually backfires, but leading by example is no guarantee either. My childhood experience would be completely different than theirs. I grew up as a member of the ethnic majority in the US, then willingly chose to become a minority as an adult by moving to Japan. They would be mixed raced, which is a minority regardless of location, and have to deal with that from birth in a country that isn't known for embracing diversity. Since fitting in with your peers is extremely important, I've met a lot of half-Japanese students who try to blend in as much as possible - including refusing to speak English.

Sorry that this is getting kind of off-topic though. But it's a complicated issue which is why I'm still wrestling with the ideas myself.

Meh, it might be off topic, but that's fine. I think my topic is kinda dying anyways- this is one of my longest lasting threads. ^_^ You have a point, I didn't think about reading and writing. That will be a bit more of a challenge. I like your idea of the travel thingy, it's a good way to make sure you're both comfortable with each-other.