I read something about the Elizabethans in relation to Shakespeare's sonnets just now. : D

Apparently, they were accepting of homosexuality, but not sodomy. Because that's preached against. But since men are so OBVIOUSLY superior to women (that's preached too) isn't it only natural they fall in love?

I have nothing against Homosexuality at all, I think Homosexuals are different than any of us, and have the same rights as us. If 'straight' people can get married, why should homosexuals be allowed to get married then? It's not like their aliens, they're just regular people, like you and me. Sure I understand some people may think of it as vulgar, and can't live with the fact that a man can fall in love with a man but what's so strange about that? In the end, it's all about the person right? How he or she is in personallity, not the outside, not Gender. Love is love.

I view homosexuality as unproductive. the act, not the life style. it has no overall value or purpose.

Originally Posted by The Collection

I view homosexuality as unproductive. the act, not the life style. it has no overall value or purpose.

Love and companionship.

Originally Posted by stilettolover

Love and companionship.

those are things that lead to some thing, they are not the end results. like why do we love? why do we carve companionship? those simple answers to those questions explains the purpose of a relationship.

Originally Posted by The Collection

those are things that lead to some thing, they are not the end results. like why do we love? why do we carve companionship? those simple answers to those questions explains the purpose of a relationship.

Love and companionship are the ultimate purpose of a relationship. When people marry, they marry for love and for companionship. At least their first marriage. Second marriage is usually about financial stability and companionship.

In the end, it all boils down to companionship--people don't want to be alone.

Couples don't always want children.

Originally Posted by stilettolover

Love and companionship are the ultimate purpose of a relationship. When people marry, they marry for love and for companionship. At least their first marriage. Second marriage is usually about financial stability and companionship.

In the end, it all boils down to companionship--people don't want to be alone.

Couples don't always want children.

it is not talking about children.

think about it, do they fall in love before or after they start a relationship? do they crave companionship before or after they meet some one? so, the purpose of love it to start and keep a relationship going.

love and companionship are things that lead to the relationship, but what is the purpose of the relationship it's self? why do we want it, why is it needed? why are people attracted to one another in the first place?

Originally Posted by The Collection

it is not talking about children.

think about it, do they fall in love before or after they start a relationship? do they crave companionship before or after they meet some one? so, the purpose of love it to start and keep a relationship going.

love and companionship are things that lead to the relationship, but what is the purpose of the relationship it's self? why do we want it, why is it needed? why are people attracted to one another in the first place?

We want relationships because we want to feel connected to others.

We seek peer relationships so that we feel socially connected.

We seek romantic relationships for companionship and love. People seek romantic relationships to find love. We as beings crave intimacy--both sexual and non-sexual. It is a part of our natural instincts--our libido, our life drive--to seek others. We need stimulation that we can only gain from physical interaction with others to truly feel whole.

And please--this is not my personal opinion, but the findings of studies done in regards to close relationships.

The purpose of relationships is companionship. Connection. Interaction. You cannot have a relationship of any kind without these things. Romantic relationships only differ from platonic and casual relationships in that they combine all the aspects of relationships.

Originally Posted by stilettolover

We want relationships because we want to feel connected to others.

We seek peer relationships so that we feel socially connected.

We seek romantic relationships for companionship and love. People seek romantic relationships to find love. We as beings crave intimacy--both sexual and non-sexual. It is a part of our natural instincts--our libido, our life drive--to seek others. We need stimulation that we can only gain from physical interaction with others to truly feel whole.

And please--this is not my personal opinion, but the findings of studies done in regards to close relationships.

The purpose of relationships is companionship. Connection. Interaction. You cannot have a relationship of any kind without these things. Romantic relationships only differ from platonic and casual relationships in that they combine all the aspects of relationships.

yes, I know well what these things mean, and I'm not asking what they are, but why. they are humans attracted to social relationships, on a public and personal level. you, your self, had said that it is because of our natural instincts that we do this. normally nature instincts are there for survive and growth.

why are these things so?

Originally Posted by The Collection

yes, I know well what these things mean, and I'm not asking what they are, but why. they are humans attracted to social relationships, on a public and personal level. you, your self, had said that it is because of our natural instincts that we do this. normally nature instincts are there for survive and growth.

why are these things so?

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Many animals mate for life, even some homosexual animals.

It is a part of human nature to desire a life mate. It is how we evovled.

You can't get any more basic than "basic instinct" and "natural instinct". That is the explanation. There is no more "why".

It's just how we're put together.

Gosh, is it really that hard for you to grasp?

• Anyway, even if it is somehow "unproductive", why does that matter? Who does it hurt? No one. It makes people happy to be in relationships.

This is kinda weird, we talked about it at school today, in Moral class. Since today(May 17th) was the international day or something like it.

Anyway, I got nothing against homosexuality. I know people that are gay, and what does it matter? Even though their sexual orientation is different, they're still the same person. It's just an attraction, they can't really change it, can't they? Being straight or not... They're just people too.

Why do it shocks people, in my opinion, is because loving someone the same sex is unnatural to them. Or that they never heard of two guys/girls loving each others.

Though my mom considers it "wrong", since it's unnatural and stuffies. But that's because that's what she learned when she was young. Now days, we are more open to homosexuality, before it was more wrongly taken.

I must admit I kinda skimmed through the 15 pages of this thread @[email protected] the while I just kept thinking...*for the love of god, what century is this? Is this issue STILL going around? Shouldn't humans have become more enlightened and moved on to more important territory? D:.*
The world is disappointing to me that there are *still* homophobes floating around. Homosexuality is nothing new, it's been around since man can document. So I just think people should get over it lol. I just don't have the kind of time or desire to dislike a group of people I don't know (or the ones I DO know) because of which gender they are attracted to.
As for gay marriage, gay adoption~ those are issues that may require other threads. But my friend has 2 Dads (yes a gay couple!), he has always had these two Dads...they are the coolest people around xD;; have the best parties. And my friend is a guy who has been and still is completely straight! And might I add, more well adjusted than half the people I know because he actually grew up in a content, loving home~!

Originally Posted by poet`s playground

• Anyway, even if it is somehow "unproductive", why does that matter? Who does it hurt? No one. It makes people happy to be in relationships.

if it doesn't help the problem, it adds to the problem. no reason on having some thing around that doesn't do any good. unproductive things will only get in way of progress.

we must advance as a whole and grow as one, useless things need to be done away with. no longer should we be considered with things on an individual level but we should be considered with things that will effect and benefit every one.

• And how exactly do you define "progress"? Because to me, allowing people to be happy with themselves, that's ultimate progress. What exactly kind of 'production' are you talking about? You said you don't mean children - what do you mean, then?

the growth, perfection and export of our selfs. things that do not add to the harmony of that, needs to be removed. this applies to a wide ranges of things, including homosexuality and other things.

considering your self with your own individual happiness and not the happiness of the over all population is a selfish thing. your own happiness doesn't help to the overall benefit of the community. besides, the way things are now, there is no way any one can have true happiness with out problems in their life. their current system of things is flawed and needs correction for the benefit and happiness of every one.

• It's selfish to want to help others? Everyone isn't going to be truly happy if everything is done "for the community". And by your logic, singlehood is also unproductive and should be done away with.

every thing would be done for the betterment of mankind, it will give a since of purpose and meaning to every one if they help out other before them selfs, like a community of giving. a community that acts as one, not a community of individuals.

and yes, singleness is unproductive. together we are united, together we are strong.

im all for open sexuality. i have no problem seeing men holding hands/ kissing or women. i actually think its sweet.

People being happy makes them do better in their chosen trade. when you have problems at home your work ethic is shot (or else doubles which is completely unhealthy) But happy people are more productive. Thus HELPING our society. Why should we limit the ways in which homosexuals exist? The law stating taht they cant marry was a waste of our time and our governments time in my opinion. There are other more productive things that should be getting passed through congress. But instead everyone is focusing on diminishing the happiness of one group of people. Anyone else see this as unfair? well you should.
marriage is a bond of love. and if you find the person that youre meant to be with even if its of the same gender you should be allowed to show your love to the world like the rest of us are allowed to (wear the ring, go out in public with out being ridiculed, GET MARRIED)
as for children. My husband was raised by his mother. who is a lesbian. (oh no!) and there are quite a few of her friends who adopted children because they didnt want to do the sperm bank way of making them. and so theyre helping out humanity by taking care of children some straight woman didnt want.

I dont under stand how you can say they are harming the overall 'happiness' of society when the people who are supossed to be protecting our persuit for happiness are putting up road blocks for certain groups of people based on what makes them happy. its not better for the whole to hold some people back. if it werent for people making waves in the past we wouldnt be where we are in the present.

The ideas of "The Collective" sound like communism xD.

And it doesn't make any sense to me what so ever. It isn't selfish to pursue individual happiness. Because if a human is happy, that feeling usually spreads to other people that they come into contact with in life. Who decides what exactly makes a society better and happier as a whole? Since the world doesn't consist of a Hive brain, it's pretty damn near impossible to guess what is for the greater good.
So a better theory would be the happiness of oneself, ones own life and then the promoting of happiness in the lives of others with compassion and objectivity would benefit "the greater good". And further the society as a whole.
Those words are constant contradictions.

You say;
the growth, perfection and export of our selfs. things that do not add to the harmony of that, needs to be removed. this applies to a wide ranges of things, including homosexuality and other things.

~ growing and perfecting oneself is in the eye of the beholder. For no one knows what perfection is, nor can anyone achieve it. However, attempting to live happy and productive lives is a way to creat a kind of harmony..and yet;

considering your self with your own individual happiness and not the happiness of the over all population is a selfish thing. your own happiness doesn't help to the overall benefit of the community

~ so we are supposed to grow and perfect ourselves, yet at the same time considering individual happiness that would lead to said "perfection of the self" is wrong (or selfish). Two blatant contradictions.

Humans as individuals, or as a community cannot strive for perfection of any sort as there is no definition of perfection. Things that better society differ from human to human. No one group can decide what is best for everyone. Which renders that whole concept redundant. It's not a better society if people's lives and hopes and pursuits are squished for the idealistic narssisitic views of one particular societal group.

Originally Posted by The Collection

every thing would be done for the betterment of mankind, it will give a since of purpose and meaning to every one if they help out other before them selfs, like a community of giving. a community that acts as one, not a community of individuals.

and yes, singleness is unproductive. together we are united, together we are strong.

You know, that was basically the theory behind Communism, and look how that turned out!

People are selfish by nature. Yes, we're alturistic too, but we're still selfish. Working together as a team and moving forward together is a good idea, but treating a community as "one" rather than recognising the individuals within it can be considered dehumanising. No better than a shepherd herding sheep - and make no mistake there would have to be a leader, or goverment, delegating out tasks, otherwise, with the best will in the world and the input from everybody, things would grind to a halt because you'd have to work through all the different ideas or votes or...

It just hasn't worked it practice, and I can't see how it will.

But this has no bearing on productivity, the furthering of the human race, whatever you want to call it, and homosexuality! From the way I understand it, parts of the globe are overpopulated. I also read in the New Scientist some time that the US goverment was panicking that birthrates were dropping. But we're living longer, and more infants are surviving, so there's less need to have large families in the West... I don't think homosexuality has any more bearing on (UNECESSARY) panic about falling birthrates than couples who don't want to have children - and in fact, some homosexual couples do have children, or adopt, etc...

That's all been pointed out far better by other people who've already posted. But I'd like to add that some of the most creative people I've ever heard of are homosexuals. Stephen Fry, through Blackadder, Qi, and tons of stuff I haven't even heard of, has made SO MANY people laugh. And John Barrowman - I read an interview where he talked about he, his boyfriend (he casually invited everybody watching Friday Night With Jonathan Ross to their civil partnership celebration) and their nieces going on holiday together. And in Doctor Who (claimed to be very camp and yet watched by millions in Britain -- AND overseas) and Torchwood... whatever else, he's made lots of people very happy indeed. Elton John. Many, many more.

And that reductionist approach of yours to make the human race efficient, not only is it dehumanising, it'd be depressing, and that's the biggest drain on efficiency I can think of.

@PerfectBlue - I'm laughing so hard. I spent... twenty minutes or so writing that post (and watching The Simpsons) and you go ahead and mention communism as well. : )

The old cliche, great minds think alike!

Originally Posted by poet`s playground

• 
  That's too bad, but I don't think a flier is really so bad, we had papers that we showed anyone who asked, and people need to be made aware somehow.

Fliers, sure.
But these were actual poster-board signs, not just little pieces of paper.
And when I say shoved, I literally mean that.
The people on the campus I go to are just way too pushy and I absolutely hate it.
I have nothing wrong with sexuality or expressing who you are, but when it's in such a forceful manner, I don't care who you are, it's rude and disrespectful.

Originally Posted by PerfectBlue

The ideas of "The Collective" sound like communism xD.

And it doesn't make any sense to me what so ever. It isn't selfish to pursue individual happiness. Because if a human is happy, that feeling usually spreads to other people that they come into contact with in life. Who decides what exactly makes a society better and happier as a whole? Since the world doesn't consist of a Hive brain, it's pretty damn near impossible to guess what is for the greater good.
So a better theory would be the happiness of oneself, ones own life and then the promoting of happiness in the lives of others with compassion and objectivity would benefit "the greater good". And further the society as a whole.
Those words are constant contradictions.

You say;
the growth, perfection and export of our selfs. things that do not add to the harmony of that, needs to be removed. this applies to a wide ranges of things, including homosexuality and other things.

~ growing and perfecting oneself is in the eye of the beholder. For no one knows what perfection is, nor can anyone achieve it. However, attempting to live happy and productive lives is a way to creat a kind of harmony..and yet;

considering your self with your own individual happiness and not the happiness of the over all population is a selfish thing. your own happiness doesn't help to the overall benefit of the community

~ so we are supposed to grow and perfect ourselves, yet at the same time considering individual happiness that would lead to said "perfection of the self" is wrong (or selfish). Two blatant contradictions.

Humans as individuals, or as a community cannot strive for perfection of any sort as there is no definition of perfection. Things that better society differ from human to human. No one group can decide what is best for everyone. Which renders that whole concept redundant. It's not a better society if people's lives and hopes and pursuits are squished for the idealistic narssisitic views of one particular societal group.

lol. thats what i was thinking while reading his replies.
i have nothing against communism or even the idea of helping out the community as a whole. but when youre paying a guy that shovels manure and a doctor te same there are bound to be problems. because people would no longer work to their full potential. which is after all what we all should be ascribing to do.

what is all this talk about how perfection can't be reached? you reach perfection by removing all the problems until none remain. and don't say that is impossible because that is what we try to do reach day. if there is a computer error, we don't ignore and say it it impossible to fix or if a person has cancer we don't say it it impossible and give up on searching for a cure.

and I didn't say what every one be payed the same, just that they should remove useless hobbies for productive ones.

clearly, this system of things is not working and instead of trying to correct it, most people just give up on it and say there is nothing that can be done. but, if some one comes along and tries to make a change for the better, the same people who say nothing can be done, tries to stop them.

not only are people not trying to help the situation, they are preventing others from trying to make it better.

we need to change from people who say nothing can be done to a group of people who see the problem and makes the changes needed to fix it.