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[Amphorae]
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04-15-2007, 10:16 PM
I haven't seen this thread and I decided this topic should be put here because so many feel so strongly about it.
The second amendment:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
-The Constitution of the United States of America, Bill of Rights
I have been raised to believe that guns are not "bad" and that the second amendment is crucial to the United States.
Why:
-Guns don't kill people; people do.
-If there were such a law in which guns were to be withdrawn from citizens, those who abided by the law would be unprotected by those who didn't and those who society considers "evil".
-A high percentage of the time a background check is instituted on someone looking to purchase a gun.
My father is a member of the NRA and he's also a gunsmith. My first and current job is working out at a gun range. This reinforces my decision to support the second amendment.
So I invite you all to engage in a debate about whether or not guns are 'bad' and whether or not the US needs the second amendment.
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kaptain kooky
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04-15-2007, 10:36 PM
Doesn't matter how many gun laws we have people are always going to work their way around them.
Honestly I have no problems with guns I have more of a problem with people who are total gun freaks lol
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stilettolover
Dead Account Holder
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04-15-2007, 10:38 PM
I don't think guns are bad, but I do believe that the second amendment is antiquated--it was written when the country did not have a big enough army to protect all its land and therefore the people were permitted to bear arms to protect themselves in the infancy of the country.
I think the amendmant is severely misused by many people. People with prejudices, people with ill thoughts in their heads. They ruin it for people who are responsible about their guns... My father has always had rifles and a sidearm. I've seen the rifles many times since he hunts, but I've never seen his handgun. I don't know where he keeps it, but I know he keeps the bullets locked in the safe where all of our documents are. I've shot rifles before and I was going to shoot a handgun (I can't remember what it was!) but I wasn't sure I could protect myself from the recoil. It was heavy.
I agree that it's not the guns it's the people who have the guns. I think that instead of pushing to ban guns we should be pushing for better education. I don't think even if guns were banned that we could ever totally get rid of them.
Although... I don't know. I'm sort of on the fence with this issue. On one hand I want guns to be done away with, on the other I see their purpose. I mean, they scare the crap out of me--I was mugged at gunpoint in Boston a few years ago, me and a friend. Which is why my father took me to a range so I could learn about guns. Then there is the haunting fact that not ten miles from where I live is one of the ranges where terrorists have been known to train with their weapons. @ [email protected];
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Audley
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04-16-2007, 03:50 AM
I'm not American, so I don't have too much to say about that country's particular laws, but I do know that guns, first and foremost, are weapons. They are designed to hurt and kill things, and I don't support any weapons (I hope no one mentions knives - knives are tools and other things can be done with them. Guns serve one purpose - to shoot things and fatally wound them).
"Guns don't kill people - people do" comes off as glib to me - it's like gun users are disowning the fact their weapon of choice is a killer. Guns do kill people because they are the object being used to kill someone - certainly, a person pulled the trigger, but the gun was the means. Guns make it easier than ever before for people to kill each other.
I think the majority of gun owners are responsible and follow the applicable laws in their areas, but with the amount of people who are killed by gunfire every year, I just don't think it's the sort of thing that can be easily defended or justified.
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Flaregon
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04-16-2007, 06:34 AM
Guns And the Second Amendment :lol: Great topic,But it a simple question of why Do you even need guns.Second Amendment is a load of crap that was put in to prevent English invading,There's no need for it anymore.Anyway Haveing a gun just forces other to buy gun make a big problem.
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Tagia
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04-16-2007, 02:41 PM
Interesting - I live in the UK and I know I'd protest against any free gun law we had here. But if I lived in America...I know I'd probably buy myself one, under the assumption that since everyone else has a gun I'd better get one too to keep myself safe.
I think if a soceity can do without guns then they should not have them - but when they are so deeply embedded into a society as they seem to be in the US I think trying to take them away would cause so much trouble it's probably not worth it.
In principle, though, I am completly against them. As Jupiter said - they are a weapon, they are designed to kill. It's their only function.
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Melody
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☆ Penpal
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04-17-2007, 06:16 PM
the united states was pretty much founded on the second ammendment. we have the right to bear arms. with those arms we beat te british senseless (oknot really but im using it anyway)
its our right to bear arms that should be keeping the government in check. if they took away those rights there would be an uprising. it would be the first step into having a controlled populace. and that is something we dont want. we dont want infringements on our freedoms. if they took away our right to have them we would have to then break that law and rise up against them. the fear of the people is what should be keeping them in line with what we want. their lives are at stake to keep the wants of the populace happy,.
i know ive taken it a bit far in my post and im not meaning to threaten public officials XD but i wanted the point to be crystal clear. the second ammendment is crucial to the united states.
i would perfer harsher gun control laws though. im all for background checks etc even if they do violate the second ammendment just because i dont want crazies running around with guns having the ability to kill people.to an extent we have to keep people safe from themselves. XD
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Melody
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04-17-2007, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Flaregon
Guns And the Second Amendment :lol: Great topic,But it a simple question of why Do you even need guns.Second Amendment is a load of crap that was put in to prevent English invading,There's no need for it anymore.Anyway Haveing a gun just forces other to buy gun make a big problem.
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you are wrong. there is still a need for it. you need guns for protection. the police need guns to keep other people in check. People know officers have guns and so more often then not they dont do anything wrong. the fear factor of guns is enough to make most people behave.
yes it started to keep the english from invading, and its now in place to keep other people from invading your property, your personal space, your lives. breaking into houses is dangerous, because you dont know if the house owner has a gun. with out that knowledge the chance of you breaking into that house is little. because your life would then be in danger.
and i dont think it forces anyone to buy guns. if you dont feel safe with out on in your neighborhood get one. if you do feel safe dont. but i think guns even though im not fond of some people that carry them, are necessary to keep order in our society. were definitally no utopia and so crime will always be there. better to be safe then sorry.
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Spring`Tyme Fresh
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04-17-2007, 07:12 PM
- Guns and America just fit together. I don't mean they need them, or that America is all about guns and violence, but say in the UK for example where i live .. well i'd be petrified to leave the house.
It just doesn't appear to fit in with our way of living. It's like the age restrictions for drinking, smoking and having sex. They will always be broken and pushed to the limits .. i don't quite understand the Second Amendment but if it meant certain regulations had to be done to own a gun, well people would break these and obtain them anyway possible.
Guns in the hands of the wrong person can be dangerous. However, there are those that are too afraid to use them. I can never see myself wanting or needing to even touch a gun. If you are in a healthy state of mind, and don't want to use them for reasons such as killing people or animals .. maybe just as a protection .. then i believe that to be okay.
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shine
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04-17-2007, 10:10 PM
I'm actually for guns and the second amendment.
Or else, think of everyone who would be suffering. Soldiers who can't fight in Iraq because they don't have guns. (I'm not so sure about this, though, since Iraq technically isn't in the US, but the soldiers are from the US.)
Hunters who will starve if they don't have guns to hunt. I mean, yeah, they could go back to spears and daggers, but probably not.
Policemen. Enough said. If a mass murderer is cornered, what will the police do to him without guns?
Guns aren't necessarily bad. It's just people who abuse the privledge to have guns that make them bad. Like, the Virginia Tech massacre yesterday. That person used two guns to kill 33 people, which is obviously horrible. But, seriously, how many times per day to you hear about multiple people getting shot by armed gunmen? Not very many.
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Melody
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04-18-2007, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by shine
I'm actually for guns and the second amendment.
Or else, think of everyone who would be suffering. Soldiers who can't fight in Iraq because they don't have guns. (I'm not so sure about this, though, since Iraq technically isn't in the US, but the soldiers are from the US.)
Hunters who will starve if they don't have guns to hunt. I mean, yeah, they could go back to spears and daggers, but probably not.
Policemen. Enough said. If a mass murderer is cornered, what will the police do to him without guns?
Guns aren't necessarily bad. It's just people who abuse the privledge to have guns that make them bad. Like, the Virginia Tech massacre yesterday. That person used two guns to kill 33 people, which is obviously horrible. But, seriously, how many times per day to you hear about multiple people getting shot by armed gunmen? Not very many.
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but even the policemen get hit with shit when they use their guns. people just associate guns with bad. They should realize that it all depends on the person, but they dont seem to get that. </3
not that i like guns. just that i can rationalize that some guns are used for protection and others are used for harm. you cant ban guns all together because... its just not logical.
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koji
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04-18-2007, 06:21 AM
I am not sure if this topic applies to me :/. I'm from Japan. I have never even SEEN a real gun O_o;;. We have not had any school shootings or massacres that I hear about all the time in the US (the US murders make our news, because Japan has NOTHING going on XD).
I do know that America has more criminals in prison than any other nation in the world. And that American prisoner population alone, far exceeds that of many 1st owlrd countries. I have never heard of a japanese 7 year old getting a hold of gun (from a parents wall) and shooting classmates.
Take US statistics 2005~
Out of 14,860 homicides, 68% were gun related.
52, 447 reported injuries from gun violence (reported)
23,237 accidental gunshot accidents
16,907 suicides by self inflicted gunshots (yes they may have found another way, but the other ways aren't as easy..)
..that's like..100,000 people in one year all filled with bullets o_O
From a newspaper article;
The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found.
The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000. The CDC would not speculate why the death rates varied, but other researchers said easy access to guns and society's acceptance of violence are part of the problem in the United States.
Japan, where very few people own guns, averages 124 gun-related attacks a year, and less than 1 percent end in death. Police often raid the homes of those suspected of having weapons.
ANd we can't use the population argument as these statistics are done per capita.
I've never seen a gun, I do not know anyone who has ever seen or touched a gun, and it is almost unheard of to see people shot here o_O. That has GOT to say something about saturating a country with guns XD.
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koji
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04-18-2007, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by shine
I'm actually for guns and the second amendment.
Or else, think of everyone who would be suffering. Soldiers who can't fight in Iraq because they don't have guns. (I'm not so sure about this, though, since Iraq technically isn't in the US, but the soldiers are from the US.)
Hunters who will starve if they don't have guns to hunt. I mean, yeah, they could go back to spears and daggers, but probably not.
Policemen. Enough said. If a mass murderer is cornered, what will the police do to him without guns?
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I don't think it's a problem for law enforcement and military to have guns. They are taught how to use them, the police have to do paperwork everytime they are used and are held accountable. Its the freedom of an 18 year old being able to walk into a diner and buy a semi-automatic weapon when he isn't old enough to drink yet O_o. Its about the general population ..the ignorant masses who own guns.
The problem comes in when every slack-jawed yokel can buy a gun at the local Gun and Grill for $40. Not to mention the *calibur* of firearms available to U.S citizens. When was the last time a hunter need an AK-47 assault rifle to shoot duck? WHy would ANY citizen require an automatic weapon? Who needs to fire off 30 rounds in 3 seconds to protect their home.
As for the Hunters...I don't mean to be rude but I just can't see America as a nation of starving hunters O_O. I really don't think there are many people who *rely* on hunting to eat in the US. I'd say it's common knowledge that the United STates has no shortage of cheap food >>;
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Originally Posted by shine
Guns aren't necessarily bad. It's just people who abuse the privledge to have guns that make them bad. Like, the Virginia Tech massacre yesterday. That person used two guns to kill 33 people, which is obviously horrible. But, seriously, how many times per day to you hear about multiple people getting shot by armed gunmen? Not very many.
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see above post XD..a HELL of a lot. Maybenot to you because you live in a country thats used to it. To us on the outside, it is unthinkable.
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Tianfu
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04-18-2007, 07:29 AM
Automatic weapons are not legal for private citizens to own in America. Well, I'll say working automatic weapons, because there are collectors out there who have non-firing automatics.
The problem is that people will ALWAYS find ways to hurt, maim and kill each other. They were doing it before guns and they're doing it now without guns. It's just that gun crime tends to be higher profile, so we hear about it more often.
I'm in favor of gun control, to a certain extent. I think that registering firearms and background checks are good things, as well as the ban on automatic weapons. However, the sad fact is that the guns are already here and if you ban all private ownership of guns, only those people willing to procure the guns by illegal means will have them... which means only criminals will have them.
It would be better if people were more educated about firearms. I've noticed a trend that all the gun nut people I know grew up only knowing about guns from movies or video games. They're in love with the twisted sort of romanticism that is portrayed on television. But people, like myself, who grew up with them, were taught how to use them safely AND the consequences of using them, they're more likely to view guns with respect, as a necessary evil.
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Menstrual Cramps
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04-18-2007, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by kaptain kooky
Doesn't matter how many gun laws we have people are always going to work their way around them.
Honestly I have no problems with guns I have more of a problem with people who are total gun freaks lol
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This is my take on the topic since my boyfriend hunts. Guns are not the creators of evil, those who are immature and inexperienced with a firearm are the ones who cause the harm. Sometimes it's not even the inexperience, they already had the intention to kill someone. It's sad, but it's true.
I will say that when the second amendment was created, it was originally intended only for military men to bare arms and not every citizen in the United States. At least, that's my take on it.
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Audley
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04-18-2007, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Tianfu
The problem is that people will ALWAYS find ways to hurt, maim and kill each other. They were doing it before guns and they're doing it now without guns. It's just that gun crime tends to be higher profile, so we hear about it more often.
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It's true that people have always had ways to harm each other, but I think it's important to consider the capabilities of guns. People can kill each other with guns in secrecy - you don't need to be anywhere near the person you're shooting to kill them. Guns also provide ease of killing in terms of physical effort - granted, not everyone can effortlessly fire a gun, but it is significantly easier to fire a shot than any other method of armed violence.
We hear terms like "crime of passion" thrown around in regards to murders of loved ones, and you really have to consider whether said crimes would be fatal if not for guns - how many times have people lost their cool, had a gun lying around, and simply shot the object of their ire? The availability and acceptability of guns makes things like that possible.
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Folken
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04-18-2007, 06:36 PM
I think just looking at the number of gun-related deaths in the United States and then comparing that number to the number of gun-related deaths in England will give a good idea what needs to be done here.
Strict gun enforcement laws need to be put in place, controlling who gets guns, how they get them, and whatnot.
USA deaths: 11,000 last year
England deaths: 100(?) last year
Don't quote me on the numbers, this is what I heard on the news last night.
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stilettolover
Dead Account Holder
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04-18-2007, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jupiter
We hear terms like "crime of passion" thrown around in regards to murders of loved ones, and you really have to consider whether said crimes would be fatal if not for guns - how many times have people lost their cool, had a gun lying around, and simply shot the object of their ire? The availability and acceptability of guns makes things like that possible.
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If someone wants to kill someone else for whatever reason, they will. When there is a crime of passion you hear more about extreme beatings or strangulation than the use of firearms. More women use guns to commit crimes of passion than men, but women are still known to use other weapons.
I'm all for strict gun control. But the fact is that illegal firearms are already coming into the country--we should concentrate on stopping unregistered guns from getting into the US before we concentrate on ridding the country of weapons in total.
I mean, this country is huge, founded on the principal of guns for everyone... there are things that can be done, should be done but nothing can be done immedietly. I don't think banning guns right now would really do much.
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Audley
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04-18-2007, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by stilettolover
If someone wants to kill someone else for whatever reason, they will. When there is a crime of passion you hear more about extreme beatings or strangulation than the use of firearms. More women use guns to commit crimes of passion than men, but women are still known to use other weapons.
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I don't disagree that people will find a way, regardles - my point is merely that guns make harming/killing someone easier.
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koji
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04-18-2007, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Folken
I think just looking at the number of gun-related deaths in the United States and then comparing that number to the number of gun-related deaths in England will give a good idea what needs to be done here.
Strict gun enforcement laws need to be put in place, controlling who gets guns, how they get them, and whatnot.
USA deaths: 11,000 last year
England deaths: 100(?) last year
Don't quote me on the numbers, this is what I heard on the news last night.
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I agree~ Japan gun related death~ 43 XD
And its true that if people want to hurt eachother they will~ but the statistics show that in all countries where there is strict gun control crime is MUCH lower ratio wise (meaning population has nothing to do with it, it is a ratio estimated per capita). So..is it that all the rest of the 1st world nations want to hurt each other LESS? XD Our murder rates are far far lower. FOr *any* type of murder. Guns make killing easy. And if people think automatic weapons arent sold to anyone with a pulse, just watch documentarys, even the famous "Bowling for Columbine". That movie was very popular in Japan...and we visit Canada much more often because of it XD. In that dicumentary, the kind of firearms the average (and some seemingly undereducated) people were just..mind-blowing. People mounted assault rifles loaded on their walls where their children could get them.
I dunno :/. Maybe its about education~ but if there was gun control like there was in Japan (and our military and police have guns)~ maybe the murder rate would go down? Or at least the people with grade 4 educations (who may possibly be In grade 4 XD) couldnt get a hold of such powerful weapons. Sometimes the US can learn from all the countries around it.
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stilettolover
Dead Account Holder
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04-19-2007, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Jupiter
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Originally Posted by stilettolover
If someone wants to kill someone else for whatever reason, they will. When there is a crime of passion you hear more about extreme beatings or strangulation than the use of firearms. More women use guns to commit crimes of passion than men, but women are still known to use other weapons.
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I don't disagree that people will find a way, regardles - my point is merely that guns make harming/killing someone easier.
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xD I don't disagree. But removing guns won't stop crimes of passion, won't stop people from robbing convenience stores and liquor stores, muggings, etc.
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Nay-Nay
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n/a
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04-19-2007, 06:14 AM
If guns were banned it would only disarm those who keep them for protection.
Sad truth there will never be a world with out violence its not human nature.
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Audley
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04-19-2007, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by stilettolover
xD I don't disagree. But removing guns won't stop crimes of passion, won't stop people from robbing convenience stores and liquor stores, muggings, etc.
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I don't disagree with that, either ;) I just think if we're trying to do things that minimise the risk of death/harm, taking guns out of the equation (either by limiting their availability or removing them/certain types of them altogether) would be a major step in the right direction.
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Menstrual Cramps
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04-19-2007, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jupiter
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Originally Posted by stilettolover
xD I don't disagree. But removing guns won't stop crimes of passion, won't stop people from robbing convenience stores and liquor stores, muggings, etc.
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I don't disagree with that, either ;) I just think if we're trying to do things that minimise the risk of death/harm, taking guns out of the equation (either by limiting their availability or removing them/certain types of them altogether) would be a major step in the right direction.
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What about knives? What about Beatings? What about poisons and bombs?
Let's be honest and take a look at the world for a second. More people die to a bomb or a Knife.. than a gun. Sadly, it's true. I hear more about Bombings than I do of shootings.
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Audley
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04-19-2007, 12:20 PM
I don't want to get too off-track here, since this thread is specifically about guns, but - and I'm sorry I don't have any sources to back up my claims at the moment - I disagree that bombs kills more people than guns do. There are just simply more guns that are easily available than there are bombs - I don't disagree that a single bomb could kill more people in one instance than a gun could, but I do disagree that bombing occurs more frequently than gun violence does.
I hear more about bombings than I do about gun violence, as well, but most of those bombs are specific to a particular conflict and the media tends to focus on sensationalist crimes/atrocities over things that tend to be more commonplace.
I am aware that in countries where gun ownership is lower/gun restriction is greater, knife-related deaths occur more often than gun-related ones, but ... well, so what? Should we not be as critical of guns because there are other ways to hurt people?
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