Originally Posted by Flinx

Animals eat the other animals because they lack the ability to grow foods for themselves. We can since we have the intelligence to do so. People who are on vegan or a vegetarian diet live healthy. It helps reduce the various diseases and obesity. The world's big enough to have vegetable farms and we would not worry about deforestation. As we are advancing toward nanotech and other advancement, we can learn to farm more effectively than the old chop and burn techique. There are already been studies and experiments upon effective farming done by individuals. If we have the will to change ourselves for the better, then becoming vegetarians or vegans are not impossible and that will not do us any harm. It's just our stingyness and unwillingness to change affect how we look at things. Look at the number of acres of land that we cut down forest to farm animals in order to meet the world's demand of meat. Cows, chickens, ect. take years to develop fully until they are send to the slaughter house while plants take less. They eat up grass, plants, vegetables, dirt, insects, and among other things. Therefore instead of raising cows and poor harmless beings, we can still live. (Even healthier w/o meats)

People like to eat meat because it has been a long tradition. A baby just come to life; it doesn't automatically like to eat and can't live without it. Eating meat is just a habit that mankind unfortunately has developed over the years. Not only eating meats appear to be feeding yourself poison over the years, it also harm the enviroment greatly. When you look at the overall picture, it seems to me that what destroy us all is our selfishness and inconsideration with what's around us. There are solutions. That's why we're here to discuss them and encourage them.

Vedgetarianism correllates with intelligence, I read somewhere. C:

But they can't tell whether that's causing the intelligence, or whether it was an intelligent decision to go vedgy.

I'm aware of the deforestation involved; that was the brunt of my argument, but our hunter-gatherer ancestors had access to vedge in the bush but still chose to hunt for meat as well. Iiin fact, I read an article that said if the world were to go vedgy, there would be more land saved since you wouldn't have to produce food for the livestock either. It's a fair argument that we might have grown beyond it, but seeing as very few cultures have obliterated meat from their diet I doubt they could do well without it immediately. We are adapted to eat it - just not in the quantities a lot of the world consumes it in.

And some sources of vitamins and minerals are best and readily available through meat. Iron in red meat, for instance. I can't stand red meat, and I'd rather eat spinach any day, but I can't deny it's a more effective source of iron for anaemic women. >__<

Plus, you build up toxins from anything we consume, vedge included, as I understand it.

Plus, you have the issue of education; it just isn't feasible to force the world to suddenly go vedge, because I'll bet the goverments won't be prepared to put the necessary funding behind it to demonstrate to people how to make a vedge/vegan diet work. It's tough to get the right balance of everything, and I've known a number of people who've made themselves very sick trying to keep it up.

So, everything in moderation is what I'm sticking by. Perhaps a gradual decrease is in order.

And back to the hunter-gatherers... we're all so scared these days of going out into the countryside and getting our food there. You could probably pick yourself a ruddy good salad if you had the knowledge... it's a shame we've allowed ourselves to lose that.

**panics** OMFG! THE WORLD IS GANNA END! **rushes around like a headless chicken**


Actually I knew all that a long time ago. It doesn't take a doco for the world to see its screwed. Look at NZ! We have ice burgs now! Not to mention a huge hole in the Ozone Layer that is RIGHT ON TOP OF US!

But is anyone doing anything to change it? No
Why? Cos everyone thinks there is NOTHING THEY CAN DO about it. WRONG! You can do something. You can do so much! But it means not being lazy and actually saving the planet on your own. Cos no matter what ONE person does, there are always thousands more willing to polute the planet in your place.

I thought the hole in the Ozone layer was shrinking?!?!

Or is it growing again?

Arrrgh, keeping up-to-date can be so tough!

{ And you live in NZ? I envy you. ;3; }

• As far as I know, I know the ozone layer is deteriorating. D:
  I have no knowledge of whether it's expanding or shrinking.
  
  Can it even do that? Shrink I mean. xDD;;

I read it was repairing itself slowly. I mean, we're not releasing as many CFCs and such... And it is feasible it can repair itself seeing as it formed in the first place.

• Yeah, that makes much more sense.
  
  But you know, if the ozone layer would never repair itself, I find it kind of scary. That a hole in the ozone layer would just stay there, only being able to get bigger and bigger. If it would never repair itself, I could only imagine how much of a threat that would be to mankind and the rest of the world. Horrible I imagine. It's scary to think that the world could end and stuff. D:

;o; We carbon-based creatures FRAZZLE under UV rays.

C: *why she doesn't like getting tanned and has a reputation for slathering on sunscreen and sticking to the shade and bantering on to anybody who'll listen that there's no bloody such things as a healthy tan and it's dead cells and blahblahblah*

But they can't tell whether that's causing the intelligence, or whether it was an intelligent decision to go vedgy.

Personally, I think it goes both ways. People come to vegetarianism because 1) their intelligence urges them to do so 2) their conscience 3) follow wise advice 4) and the other personal reasons. Not only it contributes to a healthy environment and a healthy body, it also has its other benefits such as boosting one's expansion of the brain. Quite a few people in history are known as vegetarians such as Einstein, Leonardo Da Vinci, Thomas Edison, Charles Darwin, Voltaire, and so on.

but our hunter-gatherer ancestors had access to vedge in the bush but still chose to hunt for meat as well.

Oh yes. Indeed they have. However, in the winter, perhaps they've found difficulty in finding edible plants + the fact that they migrate over time when they ran out of foods motivate them to hunt because hunter-gatherers back then only live on whatever they consider "foods" they found. They haven't start agriculture. Right now, our generation has access to science and the knowledge that make our lives the way we want it. We don't have to adapt most of lives to nature or to hunt for foods. We can create. In fact, we've done lots of it. We can also maintain those things that we created or the things that have been here since we were born such as nature. We also have the power to destroy. If we don't want ourselves to be our own murderer, we have to stop destroying others.

Now, our ancestors also did many many many things. Such as bombing each others, make slavery out of others, and other things. When looking back, some of us would disagree and perhaps look down upon their actions of which they look up to. Mankind has become more civilized, more kind, more noble, more expose to knowledge, more wise (hopefully) over the years. We make change to the old ideas to better ones. Although it takes time and much effort to pursue the world in doing so, but one by one, a change has to start somewhere in some corner of the world.

And some sources of vitamins and minerals are best and readily available through meat. Iron in red meat, for instance.

In vegetables and fruits, there are also availability to vitamins and minerals. When to be a vegetarian, it's just not eat just tofu or something like that. To eat a variety of vegetarian foods that are offered in the markets and stores should supply enough proteins for a healthy life. (Protein Poster) One vitamin that I know that is hard to find in vegetables is Vitamin B6. The lack of B6 can lead to moodswing and depression. To make up for it, 1) Find out foods that have it since the internet is wide and a source of knowledge 2) Buy the Vitamin pills that's available in any pharmarcy. (I buy mine at Henry.) Fortunately, the missing vitamin is not a main protein that enable us to function normally. The lack of B6 is not a very big deal that would effect our daily lives, but for people who require a fully max healthy life, there is always solution or access to what they want.

Plus, you build up toxins from anything we consume, vedge included, as I understand it.

For example, Coke and Orange Juice are both drinks. Perhaps in some way, they appear as toxins to certain part of our body. Just like the water pipe in the car, engineers have 2 choice 1) Normal Tap Water 2) A liquid that has a higher boiling point. As the world of chemistry and physics advance, engineers choose the 2nd option because the liquid that has a higher boiling point will keep the engine from overheat so it can run longer, with longer miles life-span. Similarly, coke and orange juice may appear as toxic in some way, but wouldn't you say one would be less toxic than other? Even though anything that we consume build up toxic, some build more than others by some difference, or a great difference.

it just isn't feasible to force the world to suddenly go vedge, because I'll bet the goverments won't be prepared to put the necessary funding behind it to demonstrate to people how to make a vedge/vegan diet work. It's tough to get the right balance of everything, and I've known a number of people who've made themselves very sick trying to keep it up.

Although it is idealistic to have the power to force people to change their life, but for a fact, in reality, we can't or won't try to do that. Not against one's will. We can try to pursue one through the use of morals, religions, science, knowledge, wisdom, and so on. A baby sees nothing in a knife other than an object, but the adult will teach it to be aware of it because the knife can hurt other and itself.

It is not particularly easy to keep a right balance. But different people, they have different issues with their body. In India, there are many monks who fast for days and years. I saw one story in the "Believe it or not" book that I saw in Costco which said a man has been fasting for 68 years. He still live. Especially in the United States where its residents have access to lots of resources and knowledge of how to keep a balance diet, it shouldn't be much of a problem if you actually give a bit of effort to.

we're all so scared these days of going out into the countryside and getting our food there.

lol. Oh yes. I agree that the youth in society and the old ones too would be very reluctantly in farming. However, that's the people who live in city and towns. Everyone has a job in the world. The scientists make cool tech to help the efficient of farming. The farmers make goods. The company makes cloth and house-tools. There would be people who work in companies. There are jobs available; and there would be people who would do them. It's just according to their liking.

That was really interesting! C:

But I thought Darwin ate turtles? Or was that just a rumour?

xD; Or owls. Hang on. I'll consult my book.

And for the last part, I didn't mean farming; I meant gathering wild food. Mushrooms and salad. There's actually very little (at least in the English countryside) that can do us significant damage. And the flavour is so much more intense.

I know next to diddlysquit about wild food - apart from the obvious like blackberries, strawberries, dandelion and a couple of other things - and I was lamenting that loss of knowledge.

And Darwin, according to The Book of General Ignorance, wasn't vegetarian. He was a member of the Cambridge "Gourmet Club" or "Glutton" which sought to taste unusal animals not normally found on menus.

So they ate brown owl, on his voyage on the Beagle he tried armadillo, puma, lived off iguana in the Galapagos and Giant Tortoise.

And I think somebody contended this elsewhere, Hitler wasn't a vegetarian.

I can understand that he might have turned so later in life... He suffered pretty badly from some gastric disease I can't remember the name of. Perhaps his doctors advised him to switch. I'll look it up. The memoirs of his wife have recently been published, actually, recording his daily fluctuations.

>__< I hate having an upset stomach more than anything, which is why I only ever eat a little meat... I find it quite indegestible. Fish is another matter. I love fish.

And I'd take most of the names from that website with a pinch of salt and a good deal of extra research. They're trying to promote their life style, and it seems a pretty underhand tactic to lure people over with fancy names. Who has been vegetarian shouldn't have a bearing on whether another person decides to be; I'd rather look to scientific evidence (which we've already been over and I agree >__<).

And for the last part, I didn't mean farming; I meant gathering wild food. Mushrooms and salad. There's actually very little (at least in the English countryside) that can do us significant damage. And the flavour is so much more intense.

I know next to diddlysquit about wild food - apart from the obvious like blackberries, strawberries, dandelion and a couple of other things - and I was lamenting that loss of knowledge.

Pardon my stupidity, but I'm not quite fully understand by the damage that you mean. xD But it's alright if you don't want to extend on it and let the matter away.I guess gathering wild foods is an option since they're free to take. o.o

About Darwin's vegetarianism, I've also looked it up somewhat.
http://www.happycow.net/famous_vegetarians.html
This is one of the sites that suggest Darwin and other people were vegetarians. Perhaps sometime in their lives or perhaps their published works suggested that they were vegetarians. From what I've found, I assume that these are direct quote from Darwin's work or his own.

Even in the worm that crawls in the earth there glows a divine spark. When you slaughter a creature, you slaughter God.

The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man.

One of the quotes is found here. My favorite there are quotes from Da Vinci and Linda McCartney.

On this site, (how reliable it is, I'm not sure, but maybe it clarifies somewhat)

Mr. Moore: Darwin's approach is very much in harmony with people who are against speciesism as it's called today, those who would give rights to animals. Darwin abhorred cruelty to animals. He remonstrated with people who he saw abusing animals. He would take them up on it on the spot. He was a J.P., a justice of the peace, a magistrate for his county, and there are cases of him sentencing people to punishment because of the way they treated their pigs or their horses. Darwin even respected plants, and there are descriptions of him going into his greenhouse and talking to them and stroking their leaves as if they were alive. Darwin wasn't a tree-hugger; I don't mean that at all. He respected life. He wasn't averse to killing animals and dissecting them, he wasn't a vegetarian, but his vision of us all being netted together — the human races as one family and all of life as part of the great tree of life whose creator, through the laws of nature, is God — is Darwin's way of looking at the world.

Perhaps in his writing, it suggests that he was a vegetarian because he leans toward. However, in contrast to reality, maybe he did not become a vegetarian. Maybe he did in later of his life as you said. Anyhoo, moving on...

Hitler is definitely not a vegetarian. lol. Personally, fishes and animals seem the same to me. *Think of 'Finding Nemo'*

Who has been vegetarian shouldn't have a bearing on whether another person decides to be; I'd rather look to scientific evidence (which we've already been over and I agree >__<).

I do agree with you that vegetarians shouldn't have such a bearing in forcing others to be. Honestly, lots of vegetarians I know never bother talk to others people about it because they've told they've become sick with talking to the people whose point in talking to them is not to be open minded, but to find flaws within their words and shot them down with laughters and ridiculous comments. ( From my past experience, the discussion with a classmate lead to, "How do you know plants have feelings?" -____-) Lol. To some others, they keep on trying at any time they could in pursuing others to change their life style. By "converting" others to be come veggie eaters don't bring them any benefits, but it's just like Linda McCartney says, if the slaughter houses have glass wall, then the world would become vegetarians. It's similiar to the reason behind the American Civil War that ended in 1865 (I think?). It's just so horrible to just imagine a minute as an animal in the slaughter house. I got a cut and it hurts like heck, but that just isn't a million or a billion times smaller compare to what's going on in there. It's like hell on earth.

Whatever happen will happen. Perhaps spiritual advices won't do much for the mass, then science will show the mass the result of wrong decisions.

On April 22 every year we celebrate the World Earth Day. Every year the Earth Day's Peace Bell ceremony at the UN brings together leaders from countries around the world to promote understanding and choosing the ways of peace.

Earth Day, that was inaugurated for the first time in 1970. Environmental problems, population growth , natural resources like clean water, arable farmland, forests, and fisheries are permanent features of societies torn by internal strife.

Earth Day commemorates earth health and promotes making the environment cleaner and safer. Its connection with war is that munitions pollute the environment and mines are safety hazards. The connection between Earth Day and industries is that they use the earth's resources, many of which are nonrenewable. They also pollute the land, sea and air. Therefore, there is an inconsistency between the accumulation of material wealth through the expansion of industries and the maintenance of an attractive and healthy environment. Population growth also harms the environment because more people require more land, water and air and the resources in them. Unfortunately, continued population growth will deteriorate the environment in spite of the best efforts of people to make the earth cleaner and safer.
There is people who still care, who still try....I try on my students and every youngster I know

We had to watch that for Geology, talk about boring.

It had good points, but I don't understand the whole Al Gore thing, he's odd...and creepy.

I really do agree that people need to conserve and observe the facts that the earth isn't what it used to be. Global Warming is something that will effect everyone for generations to come, the problem is getting people to see this.

While the film did open my eyes, I think that unfortunately something very bad is going to have to happen before people really wake up to the fact that now is the time to act.

By damage I mean wild foods that could poison us. There's only like three sorts of toxic mushroom in the UK or something... but hardly anybody goes out and picks mushrooms these days. >__<

xD And you won't find me picking at flaws in your opinion; just stating my different one. Personally, I wouldn't give up meat - I don't eat much anyway - because I felt sorry for the animals. If I know where the food comes from, and my mum's a great advocate of this, and know that it's been killed quickly and humanely, I'm happy. Free range and organic... if it's had an honourable life, then it's a shame to let it go to waste.

I guess I don't feel as much compassion for animals as you, or put that much importance on our lives. Plus my parents don't listen to my debates about it and it's unfair to ask my Ma to accomodate to another diet on top of everybody else's. I'm more likely to give up meat for the health benefits. Frankly it's gross to think how we let things go slightly gamey and rot before we can eat it.

I'd also like to know if the first quote has a date attached to it, because I think Darwin gave up his Faith.

Which is why we get reports of him turning round on his deathbed and declaring evolution false, and it was all God, etc...

It's sort of funny, really.