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Aosagi
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#1
Old 06-01-2007, 06:24 PM

I don't know how often people keep up with the polotics surrounding the video game indudstry, but I have a scoop for people.

On http://www.gamepolitics.com/ they posted a new article about NY trying to pass laws against the sale of Video games to minors. What generally sounds like a harmless thing is actually anything but. The proposed law states that "selling or renting to a minor a game which includes “depraved violence and indecent images” would be a class E felony under the state penal code", this law however does not state what content falls under this.

The group responsible for this has yet to be created and is under another section of the law stating "Like the Lanza bill passed in the Senate, A08696 would create an Advisory Council on Interactive Media and Youth Violence. This group would make recommendations and evaluate research on interactive media and violent behavior among children. The group would also review the ESRB system". Overall this is basically stating that the government doesn't beleive that the ESRB rating system is working, when in fact it's fine as is (it's just that parents don't look at them EVER). On top of that, the research needed to prove of disprove the need for such a law to protect the minds of children is within the law itself to still be researched. Basically they're passing a law just in case said research comes out true, however if the law went through I'd doubt they'd do a fair study, as it's clear they've already made up their minds about what is "true".

This all pales in comparison to the final piece of the massacre of the constitution that this is the recent article about this law stating that because of New Yorks 3 strike policy on felony convictions, it's possible that a person who sells or rents an "unfit" game to a minor they could potentially go to jail for life if the judge saw fit. Of course they'd have to have commited previous felonies of the same, but still JAIL TIME spanning your whole life for selling a video game to a kid. Stated in the article also is that the sale of alcohol, cigarettes, or violent movies carry either minimal or no charges whatsoever in most states. . . :?

This all being said what do you think about the law?

-Is it reasonable? or do you think they should go back to writing it and researching before they pass anything?
- Is the sentencing tagged to it reasonable? If not what should it be?
- What's your opinion on the issue and the rest of the points on this law or any other law like it trying to get passed and any other points from articles the articles in game politics that I didn't cover?

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#2
Old 06-01-2007, 07:55 PM

Dude, that's lame. I didn't really read the link because it's long and I'm currently at school, it sounds dumb! So, are you saying that if some kid who played Grand Theft Auto thought that it'd be cool to go kill somebody and not get caught, the game developers would be jailed for life? If thats the case, that's lame!

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#3
Old 06-01-2007, 08:19 PM

not quite, however it's been tried. it's kind of like how if retailers like Wal mart, they train their workers to not sell alcohol or ciggs to minors, they even have a prompt for it to remind you when an item of that nature is scanned, EB has something like this for certain rated games I beleive. But if a wal mart employee sells ciggs or alcohol to whoever who is not of age they can get in trouble fined and possibly lose their job. This law only applies to Video game sales of games like GTA or the like to people under the age of 18, which doesn't happen often without a parent as is, but if this happens and a parent isn't there to consent this person can and will be jailed possibly fined and definately fired.

[edited]

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#4
Old 06-01-2007, 11:34 PM

Retailers need to do their part I think, I know I've seen in stores over here that gaming stores sell software to parents without saying a word about how the game is not suitable for minors, when the kid in question is actually with them and that the certificates actually mean the same thing as they do for films..there seems to be some sort of mental block whereby parents fail to register that ratings are there for a reason o_O
I'm not sure why people fail to realise that games can be and are just as violent as films..

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#5
Old 06-02-2007, 12:28 AM

Agreed. Stores do need to do their parts, but so do parents. I think both need someone to take strides to educate both and help make it so theres no room to point fingers. Rather than taking the responsability of everyone except for the poor store clerk who's going to have the weight of all this law on their shoulders. :(

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#6
Old 06-02-2007, 02:22 AM

Both the stores and the parents need to be more responsible in their actions. I say the parents should do some goddamn research on the games they plan to get their kids, but the stores can be the last line of defense, as well. All it takes is a simple "you DO know this is a MATURE-rated game, right...?" See? Not hard.

Now, thanks to the irresponsibility of all parties involved, this sort of crap happens. At least I can rejoice that I'm 20. :P

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#7
Old 06-02-2007, 07:30 AM

yeah, being 17 now, i dont really care about the rating system, well aside from wanting to get those scandilous Ao games :twisted:
Buy i think they should be a bit more lenient on the consumers! :wink:

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#8
Old 06-03-2007, 01:07 AM

Yeah, I guess I'd have to agree.

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#9
Old 06-03-2007, 01:23 AM

Personally, I know most of the gaming shops these days won't sell M-Rated games to children, at least not without a parent being there. However, I think it's bloody ridiculous that if a parent is there and it's sold to them that people would blame the sales clerk when the kid ends up with a violent streak? He's doing his part of things by making sure that the adult is there. That's like if a parent goes out and buys alcohol or cigarettes for their kid, but then turn around and blame the store they bought it from for their kid getting addicted or doing something stupid.

The ratings are there for a reason, god knows I've seen tons of gaming shops with freaking posters on the walls that explain the damn ratings. Parents need to step up and take more responsibility and stop looking for someone else who it's convenient to blame their screw ups on. And I think this should go for EVERYTHING, not just video games. I'm talking movies, music, games, magazines, books, etc.

If your fifteen year old daughter wants to buy a book out of the adult romance section, you should be smart enough to tell her no, because its in the ADULT section for a reason. I've worked in a few retail stores, and worked at a gas station, and I see it happen way too often...

Parents go in and buy a game/movie/cd, then take it home and a week later come back complaining because of how graphic and/or violent it is. There were times I had to refrain from slapping people for their idiocy. That CD has a MATURE warning on it for a reason. If you decide that's suitable for your kid then I can't argue it. But DONT blame me for your own stupidity and lack of responsibility and willingness to give in to every damn wish your child has.

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#10
Old 06-03-2007, 03:18 AM

Being in a fairly relaxed portion of the United States, I don't see why people worry so much. The retailers around here do their jobs as far as carding kids that want more mature things--no matter what the media. Hell, the people I know that work for the video game stores in the area like to give kids that are obviously too young, as well as the ones that are even days to a couple months shy of the 17-year age requirement a hard time, because they're doing their job.

Anywho, back on topic-- any and all laws aside from the standard, "Sell to a minor and get caught = arrested" or whatever is all you really need. It's the kids you should be yelling at for being retards. :/

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#11
Old 06-03-2007, 04:33 AM

While I dont think I completely agree with the way that law sounds, I think that they are at least trying to take a step towards whats needed. What they really need to do is take the ESRB ratings more seriously and enforce them as you would a movies rating. With M rating having about the same severity as a R rating for movies. An AO would warrant the same precausions as anything NA-17 or X rated. If there was legal actions behind the ESRB people would take it a bit more seriously.

And the whole parents arent caring. Thats not completely true. I work retail and have had the pleasure numerous times of working with parents that look over the ratings and the games themselves and even ask me questions about the games and age appropriateness of them. Made me very happy to see parents caring the games they let their children play. So there are some out there that do care, but there will always be those that dont.

I think that there just needs to be a bit more legal reinforcement behind the ESRB ratings and things would be a bit better. I may not be a minor but I deffinently believe that an M rating means none under 17 should play unless without parental consent, not they dont know and wont care attitude like so many have.

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#12
Old 06-03-2007, 10:44 AM

I..

Don't really care.

Foreign countries FTW xD

That's lame.

It won't pass.

Obviously.

The whole concept is too stupid.

I can understand something like Manhunt or whatever being a bit touchy, but God of War and the like?

No way.

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#13
Old 06-03-2007, 08:06 PM

Marina : Unfortunately the lawmakers don't know that what happens in your town is generally what happens, their idea of what goes on it that most or all retailers just let whoever buy whatever game they want. On top of that, what happens is that it does sometimes happen, and if something happens from it they blow it out of preportion. Reguardless, there are some areas I'm sure and some stores that don't honestly care, most big retailers don't suffer from this as much but independent stores do. although if you go back to the gamepolitics link I have in the first post you'll see the recent article is about the ESRB taking strides to make it so that independent retailers have things for parents to look at as well (namely being big posters).

Tazaki: actually R rated movies bare no punishment according to my research
http://www.theclyde.net/TheClyde_Ratings.htm . It basically explains exactly what the rating system is ment for "for parents to make the right decisions on what to let their children see" and that the ratings were put in place to avoid government regulation of the film industry. The same goes for the video game rating system. Reguardless of what you may think, the main problem runs between the parents and the clerks, weighing more heavilly on the parents. reguardless I do beleive that a penalty should be enforced on the clerks should they find that they allowed a child or teenager purchace a game that was rated over their age limit, possibly a small fine (larger if they do it alot), not firing possibly just a requirement to take a couse about the rating system and it's importance (like I know Wal mart does for ciggs and alcohol). Jail time I think is over the top for something like this considering the movie industry doesn't even have such regulations hanging over it's rating system. And if you still don't beleive that parents are dumb about rating systems and simply don't pay attention I'll tell you a story, me and my friend go to see Silent Hill, in front of us are a mother father and their two kids. . . this was bad enough, but than afterwards they complained about how "that wasn't a kids movie" and stuff. All I could do was shake my head in shame.

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#14
Old 06-03-2007, 09:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Elk
I..

Don't really care.

Foreign countries FTW xD

That's lame.

It won't pass.

Obviously.

The whole concept is too stupid.

I can understand something like Manhunt or whatever being a bit touchy, but God of War and the like?

No way.
The law is stupid, but there is a chance that it could pass. There are families and groups of people that despise Rockstar, and those other game companies that produce "bad" games. To the law people, it would make sense to pass the law, to shut those families up, right? Especially with that faggot Jack Thompson around, you never know.

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#15
Old 06-03-2007, 11:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aosagi
Marina : Unfortunately the lawmakers don't know that what happens in your town is generally what happens, their idea of what goes on it that most or all retailers just let whoever buy whatever game they want. On top of that, what happens is that it does sometimes happen, and if something happens from it they blow it out of preportion. Reguardless, there are some areas I'm sure and some stores that don't honestly care, most big retailers don't suffer from this as much but independent stores do. although if you go back to the gamepolitics link I have in the first post you'll see the recent article is about the ESRB taking strides to make it so that independent retailers have things for parents to look at as well (namely being big posters).

Tazaki: actually R rated movies bare no punishment according to my research
http://www.theclyde.net/TheClyde_Ratings.htm . It basically explains exactly what the rating system is ment for "for parents to make the right decisions on what to let their children see" and that the ratings were put in place to avoid government regulation of the film industry. The same goes for the video game rating system. Reguardless of what you may think, the main problem runs between the parents and the clerks, weighing more heavilly on the parents. reguardless I do beleive that a penalty should be enforced on the clerks should they find that they allowed a child or teenager purchace a game that was rated over their age limit, possibly a small fine (larger if they do it alot), not firing possibly just a requirement to take a couse about the rating system and it's importance (like I know Wal mart does for ciggs and alcohol). Jail time I think is over the top for something like this considering the movie industry doesn't even have such regulations hanging over it's rating system. And if you still don't beleive that parents are dumb about rating systems and simply don't pay attention I'll tell you a story, me and my friend go to see Silent Hill, in front of us are a mother father and their two kids. . . this was bad enough, but than afterwards they complained about how "that wasn't a kids movie" and stuff. All I could do was shake my head in shame.
There are actually quite a few companies out there that already have the rules in place. I know that the movie theatre here will not under any circumstances, sell anyone who looks like they're under 17 tickets to a rated R movie. I've seen kids try everything. Parent's notes, having parent's call, etc. Unless the parent shows up and buys it themselves, the kids don't see the movie. They're owned by like... AMC or something.

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#16
Old 06-04-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aosagi
Tazaki: actually R rated movies bare no punishment according to my research
http://www.theclyde.net/TheClyde_Ratings.htm . It basically explains exactly what the rating system is ment for "for parents to make the right decisions on what to let their children see" and that the ratings were put in place to avoid government regulation of the film industry. The same goes for the video game rating system. Reguardless of what you may think, the main problem runs between the parents and the clerks, weighing more heavilly on the parents. reguardless I do beleive that a penalty should be enforced on the clerks should they find that they allowed a child or teenager purchace a game that was rated over their age limit, possibly a small fine (larger if they do it alot), not firing possibly just a requirement to take a couse about the rating system and it's importance (like I know Wal mart does for ciggs and alcohol). Jail time I think is over the top for something like this considering the movie industry doesn't even have such regulations hanging over it's rating system. And if you still don't beleive that parents are dumb about rating systems and simply don't pay attention I'll tell you a story, me and my friend go to see Silent Hill, in front of us are a mother father and their two kids. . . this was bad enough, but than afterwards they complained about how "that wasn't a kids movie" and stuff. All I could do was shake my head in shame.
I never said that parents were paying attention, I just said that there are some out there that do care. I know theres plenty of morons out there that miss the obvious and blame others for their poor observation skills. There are legal measures against selling to minors and such. I've seen numerous stores fined for selling R rated movies and M rated games to minors. While firing the employee or jail would be a bit much, a fine and course because of the sale would get it through the heads of people that it shouldnt be taken lightly.

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#17
Old 06-04-2007, 02:05 AM

probably selling little kids bad video games isnt very good. XD
but then their parents will just buy them for them anyways, so whats the difference? XDD

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#18
Old 06-04-2007, 02:32 AM

I'm glad that there are strict restrictions on the sale of games to minors.
I am a person who believes in allowing the parent to have ultimate oversight for their children.
Thankfully, I am a gamer myself, so I can decide which games are alright to buy and which are not.

I also believe that video games don't have a huge impact on your life (ie: leading to murder, etc) if you control it properly.

More power to the laws and restrictions.

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#19
Old 06-04-2007, 03:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazaki
I never said that parents were paying attention, I just said that there are some out there that do care. I know theres plenty of morons out there that miss the obvious and blame others for their poor observation skills. There are legal measures against selling to minors and such. I've seen numerous stores fined for selling R rated movies and M rated games to minors. While firing the employee or jail would be a bit much, a fine and course because of the sale would get it through the heads of people that it shouldnt be taken lightly.
sorry it was just after I got up that I replied to your previous post. I read over it again and found my error :oops: And indeed I agree on your points.

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#20
Old 06-04-2007, 05:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aosagi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazaki
I never said that parents were paying attention, I just said that there are some out there that do care. I know theres plenty of morons out there that miss the obvious and blame others for their poor observation skills. There are legal measures against selling to minors and such. I've seen numerous stores fined for selling R rated movies and M rated games to minors. While firing the employee or jail would be a bit much, a fine and course because of the sale would get it through the heads of people that it shouldnt be taken lightly.
sorry it was just after I got up that I replied to your previous post. I read over it again and found my error :oops: And indeed I agree on your points.
hehe no prob^^ I'm sure outside the US there would be a whole different look on things too. So these ideas would only work within the US of course.

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#21
Old 06-04-2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by habib1337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Elk
I..

Don't really care.

Foreign countries FTW xD

That's lame.

It won't pass.

Obviously.

The whole concept is too stupid.

I can understand something like Manhunt or whatever being a bit touchy, but God of War and the like?

No way.
The law is stupid, but there is a chance that it could pass. There are families and groups of people that despise Rockstar, and those other game companies that produce "bad" games. To the law people, it would make sense to pass the law, to shut those families up, right? Especially with that faggot Jack Thompson around, you never know.
Ohhh, my friend. Didn't your read?

Jack thompson was proved an idiot by the court of law.

<:D

See, he posted an ad saying anyone that made a murder case video game of two individuals looking VERY much like Rockstar and Taketwo's owners being killed saying he'd donate 10,000 dollars to a charity.

Now, someone made a text based video game of a man named Hack Thompson being sent to court for the murder of those two people, and living his days out in Jail.

He naturally got pissed, and didn't donate.

He was taken to court by...I can't remeber who, and stayed in Jail for two days for "False advertisement" in the newspapers.

:lol:

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#22
Old 06-05-2007, 04:22 AM

My little brother would be pissed if those laws were every applied here in the Philippines. xD (He's only 13 years old and his favorite games are some what like GTA.)
Anyway, the law is kinda pointless since a child below 18 with an older sibling who is 18 or above can still access the games. I still say that the parents are the ones who should have the choice whether or not the child should or should not be allow to play the game.

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#23
Old 06-05-2007, 06:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Elk
Quote:
Originally Posted by habib1337
The law is stupid, but there is a chance that it could pass. There are families and groups of people that despise Rockstar, and those other game companies that produce "bad" games. To the law people, it would make sense to pass the law, to shut those families up, right? Especially with that faggot Jack Thompson around, you never know.
Ohhh, my friend. Didn't your read?

Jack thompson was proved an idiot by the court of law.

<:D

See, he posted an ad saying anyone that made a murder case video game of two individuals looking VERY much like Rockstar and Taketwo's owners being killed saying he'd donate 10,000 dollars to a charity.

Now, someone made a text based video game of a man named Hack Thompson being sent to court for the murder of those two people, and living his days out in Jail.

He naturally got pissed, and didn't donate.

He was taken to court by...I can't remeber who, and stayed in Jail for two days for "False advertisement" in the newspapers.

:lol:
Didn't Penny Arcade also donate that 10 grand FOR him? That was some delicious, delicious insult added to injury. They're so awesome.

Anyway, I skimmed the previous two pages, and I don't see anyone mentioning what is really going on here.

The likelihood of this law, and laws like it, passing is very, very low. That whole "free speech" thing is still hanging around, surprisingly enough. And although it's good and responsible to fight against these laws, I believe all the politicians are really doing is just pandering. Even Hillary got on the Jack Thompson boat during the Hot Coffee scandal, whining about sex or whatnot.

So all they're trying to do is to take advantage of ignorant - not necessarily dumb - parents by telling them that the video game developer/publisher/retailer is trying to corrupt their kids. Parents, who are already told by the media that there's no way that they can ever understand 'new' stuff, buy into this crap and subsequently eat it up when those same politicians say "We will save your childrenz!"

I don't believe that it's really a case of the parents being lazy, although some most certainly are. It's not very productive to go around complaining about them, either. It's really a case of them being told that they should buy their kids whatever they want. For many parents, games are some sort of alien product that they can't ever enjoy or understand.

It would be nice to fix this problem in a multitude of ways, including: fixing the justice system so frivolous "this is my fault but I want you to pay" lawsuits get slapped down IMMEDIATELY, fixing the pandering atmosphere on Capitol Hill so politicians who know nothing about something don't get to pass a LAW on that something, and kicking Jack Thompson in the 'nads. However, those solutions are (mostly) HUGE projects, which take a LOT of time and are likely not to be done just so the poor ESRB can get a break.

Instead what does need to be done, and actually is starting to happen, is A) educating parents to actually grow a spine and tell their children what content they can consume, and B) expanding the gaming market in general so parents who previous viewed games as aliens will feel more comfortable with them. Although the latter is off topic, you may have noticed that the ESRB is actually running ads directed specifically towards parents telling them to grow a spine and use the handy-dandy ratings to buy games for their kids. I've actually seen their ads on TV several times, and a couple of Penny-Arcade-illustrated ads in my recent Nintendo Power issues.

So, things are pretty much looking up. Jack Thompson is a public joke, the ESRB is helping to educate parents on the basics of parenting, and certain (cough cough, Nintendo) companies are actively trying to reach out to 'non gamers' - in other words, parents who are normally told that they aren't allowed in their childrens' world.

Oh yeah, it's important to note that some parents ARE gamers and therefore don't have much of an excuse, but many simply are not.

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#24
Old 06-10-2007, 06:08 AM

What I have a problem with is that someone arbitrarily decides where the lines are drawn for "unreasonable violence." It's not the parents sitting down with the game and seeing if they think it's appropriate-- it's some board of advisers that can yay or nay a vote on something just out of the blue.

Kitsuka was totally right in saying that there should be a better system in place to stop frivolous law suits. If there were better controls on who can and can't sue people, then we wouldn't have to have some of the silly, stupid laws that we do now.

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#25
Old 02-13-2008, 10:22 PM

You know whats funny, i used to work for toys r us and i saw first hand the failure of the ratings system... see situation typically breaks down like this

Kid: Mommy, i want THIS game!

mom: how much is it?

kid: 19.99

Mom: whats it about? (this question usually only gets asked about half the time but in fairness i thought i'd include it)

Kid: you go around in a car and you shoot people and stuff

Mom: No, thats too violent

Kid: But i WWWWAAANNNTTT ITT!!!! (Screaming fit emminent)

So at this point either the parent caves immediately, that happens 70% of the time, or the parent tries alittle harder before the cave-in happens thats about 20% the other 10% is a parent doing their job and shutting the kid down and maybe smacking them on the butt for making a scene.

So its really not the companys fault for making the game, or the governments fault for having to do stupid things like this... it all begins and ends with piss-poor parenting. People who really dont bother to take the time to keep an eye on their own damn kids. parents who dont realize the best way to keep their kids from seeing shows they dont approve of or listening to music they dont approve of or playing video games they dont approve of is to actually WATCH their own kids (or maybe they DO realize it and just dont want to put forth the effort). the government is then put in the unwanted job of secondary parents to the entire nation, which is never what they were meant to do in the first place. its not that the government is tricking these silly bastards, they're cleaning up after them. because if mommy and daddy arent going to keep an eye on the kids sadly somebody has to.

What needs to be governmentally controlled is human reproduction. Make people pass tests and exams to make sure they have the skills and ability to watch over another human life before allowing them to ruin one.

 


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