Originally Posted by Fabby

Irrelevant. The fact is, you only know these things precisely BECAUSE you were born. If you weren't alive to figure out life is worth living, how could you know that?


First of all, it's not so easy as to just "catch him and make him pay." If it were genuinely that simple, there would be a lot more dads paying child support.
And frankly, you can't predict someone else's actions. It's not the mother's fault if her guy wasn't who she thought he was and he leaves her with a baby. It happens every day.


When I became sexually active, I accepted that I could become pregnant. I knew that could happen, no matter what I do, accepted the risk and move on. I did NOT accept the fact that I would have to have a baby. It's been said before; consent to sex is not consent to motherhood.


I know a fair bit about abortion simply through my own research. You don't have to go to medical school to be educated on a topic.


Actually, I never learned about any of those things. No one ever taught me what birth control was, or how to use it, or that just because you're on your period doesn't mean you can't get pregnant.


But.. they do fail. It happens. You can't just brush off the percentage of the population that gets knocked up because they're a small percentage.
And people are human. You're going to forget a pill at least once in your lifetime. It's pretty much guaranteed. No one actually hits the 100% perfect use rate, even if they're responsible. Because we're NOT ROBOTS.


It's not just about the mother. It's about the damn kid that will have a godawful life because the mother NEVER WANTED IT. And she's probably going to be pretty fucking contemptuous of the baby that ruined her life.. I wouldn't want to take care of a baby that someone forced me to have as a punishment. Maybe she made a mistake one night. Maybe she is just a damn idiot. Who cares? It is ultimately the child who suffers, not just the parents. It is not a happy family situation that you are creating here, it is a miserable cycle of abuse.
A baby should never, ever be a punishment. I don't care what the mother did, or what she should have done; I care about the lives that get ruined in the process of making sure that the woman learns a lesson.

Completely relevant. You know how much you'd have missed out on had you not been born? For one thing, the ABILITY to think.

But abortion takes that away from you, doesn't it?

Usually, it is just as simple as "catch him and make him pay". Call the police, do everything. It's illegal to neglect children; there are child abuse laws that make child support legal. What else are the police and courts there for besides to "protect, serve, and obey" the law?

It's not the question of whether you consent to motherhood or not. As I brought up later, there are contraceptives. But there's that slight chance they'll fail. If they do fail, you shouldn't just kill the fetus, should you? Because that's pretty selfish of the mother. Sex is reproduction; wanna do it? Accept each and every consequences. That's a bit like saying you're making a cake but you're not gonna clean up the dirty dishes afterwards.

Yes, but if you had actually read the context of my reply, you would have noted that Kah claimed that I couldn't possibly have known as much about abortion as a doctor. Well, that is true. But does she?

Hmm, maybe it's just me, but I like to do a bit of research before I do anything, considering each and every possible outcome, especially the negative ones. But I'll still accept the consequences.

You can forget to take a pill, but its quite hard to forget to put on a condom, or apply spermicide. We are human, and there ARE errors. But you're claiming that I should consider the extraneous circumstances under which birth control fails? That's like saying that every time I drive a car, I should worry that I'm gonna crash, because it might happen. Yes, it might happen. But if the chances were so high, would anyone drive? Would anyone use contraceptives? Thing is, crashes happen, so do babies. Like you must resolve the consequences of a crash, even if it is "not your fault", you must resolve the consequences of birth. Not to let fetuses rot somewhere. Although I must say, abortion must really be a nice source of stem cells.

But the woman doesn't learn a lesson. The cycle repeats itself, and what you get is an increase in abortions. You have shown that my opinion is not a good resolution, but neither is yours. Women who get abortions will just go have sex, knowing that they can just get another abortion when they're pregnant.

I care about the lives that get ruined too, thank you very much. But letting women abort their babies so freely is ruining society itself. As our media portrays sex as some glamorous, popular and cool thing to do, more people will have sex, and just get abortions to make up for it. Abortions are a temporary solution, but harm society in the long run. You don't ruin the lives of the family, you ruin the life of the woman, by letting her run free and letting her think that she is invulnerable to the consequences of her sexual activities. Not saying that there's anything wrong with women's rights. Just saying that it's not nice to just shove aside all consequences of one's actions. It's like those headstrong bank robbers. "I HAVE A GUN! I'LL NEVER GET CAUGHT! I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT!" Same goes for guys, though. Have sex and a fetus? Don't just run away. Only cowards run.

I'm not saying my method is the best, but I hope it makes mothers who would consider having sex and aborting the baby to have second thoughts. Because it really is awful. It creates an unhappy family, or a person who is simply not willing to accept the consequences of reproduction.

Now, if the media wasn't selling sex like mad and just making it all glamorous and all that, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be seeing those 13-year-old non-virgins at our school and around it. There would be less need for abortions, if we were educated to be more responsible.

Note that it's not the baby that ruined her life. That's blaming a baby for her own decisions. You've done it, live up to it. Or find a way. Nothing to be mad at a baby for. Sex is love, isn't it? A baby is just proof of your love. Don't love each other? Maybe you should've never had sex.

Abortions are a temporary solution, but harm society in the long run.

Whoa. By not getting an abortion, that's one more kid that has to grow up in poverty, or an abusive household, or born addicted to drugs, or *insert situation here*. By not having an abortion, the problems of the mother are passed on to the next generation. Do you really want people like that raising kids? I see the harm to society as being in forcing women to carry to term.

Obviously not all unwanted pregnancies end up in those situations, but if a woman is already in a bad situation to raise a child, forcing her to give birth is only going to make that situation worse, on top of adding another person who will suffer because of it.

Of course it is. Abortions allow the blame to be directed somewhere else, not at the true cause. It's basically a red herring for the corrupt activities of the media, which apparently exists solely to profit, due to its protection granted to it by the First Amendment, originally to ensure that opinions are heard, even if they go against authority, but is being abused in such a way that giant companies make tons of money.

Because sex sells.

Now, abortions would be nothing wrong, true, except for the fact that, with the way sex is portrayed in media and in our society (well, where I live, anyways) as something cool and totally grown-up to do, us kids get sucked in to the hype associated with it, and it's often these kids that end up getting the abortions.

I've been thinking a bit. Maybe it's just my biased thinking due to the fact that I spend most of my time around a bunch of rowdy high-schoolers, but most abortions I encounter always involve some couples, maybe as young as 13 or 14, recklessly having sex, thinking that they'll never get pregnant (yes, the guy gets pregnant. Not physically, morally.). But this is clearly unacceptable. Abortions are just making us kids have sex WAY before we're ready for real love. Well, maybe it IS love, some kids can have that too. But that's the exception. The kind of sex I'm talking about is the "OMG UR HAWT WANNA F***?" type of sex.

Which seriously harms society in the long run. Nothing wrong with mature abortions by accident, I guess. But there is something wrong with how the average age of loss of virginity is dropping to crazy levels like 13-15. Now, I'm not saying kids that old can't love. Because sex is love, but love isn't just sex.

And sometimes it's easy to cave in to lust, when there aren't restrictions...especially when it seems to be just SEX SEX SEX on some of the channels that a lot of teens watch. Some of us kids might want to love later in life, and I think having an abortion because you or your girlfriend got someone pregnant or was pregnant earlier just kinda ruins it. Maybe that's just me.

But maybe this should go into the teen pregnancy thread.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

How do you feel, merely thinking that you would have never lived, and never experienced anything, never known of the world, never truly existed? I'm not really advocating life in general, but I'd rather have gone through life than not at all.

With that logic, you're morally obligated to produce every infant you possibly can. Every menstrual cycle represents one more egg that could've become someone unique who would eventually have wanted to live.

However, I would NOT EVER want to be brought into the world as a "punishment" for someone who didn't want me and hadn't actually done anything wrong in the first place. If you'd want your existence to be based in someone else's misery, fine. But I wouldn't.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

The father's the one to blame, but an abortion does not justify it. It's really just an excuse. Should've caught him and got child support. Then again, I don't think they should've had sex if the father's irresponsible like that.

Because everyone knows exactly how their partners will react to an unintended pregnancy. It's not like men ever lie, or anything.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

You've had the sex, accept the consequences. You can't give birth without having sex. An abortion is basically denial of it.

Sex is not a crime. It does not deserve a punishment.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Yeah, it's totally not science, I mean, people aren't mean and they don't do lab tests with half-formed babies like they do with plants and light sources. Plants are living things too, but note that humans are always more important to humans than any other living thing, although I wish I could consider them equal.

In response, the apple reacts to light stimuli; through CAREFUL SCIENTIFIC OBSERVATIONS WITH SEVERAL VARIABLES, they have concluded that plants bend in the direction of light as to better absorb it. I doubt they'd pull out fetuses and try observations to find out if it reacts. "OH IT'S A ZYGOTE! LET'S STAB IT!"

Are you arguing that reflexes/chemical reactions = consciousness? Plants have chemical reactions taking place on the cellular level that direct growth toward certain conditions. It doesn't mean they have feelings. Trust me, your lawn doesn't mind when you mow it.

We know a lot about fetal movement/reflexes/brainwaves. Certainly enough to know that any sort of pain or consciousness are impossible early in a pregnancy, and fairly unlikely until extremely late. We know this because of empirical research, not putting ourselves "in the fetus's metaphorical shoes."

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Plenty of doctors? I agree that I don't know much about abortion, but can you honestly say you do? Are you a doctor? What I do know, however: abortion is done either physically or chemically. Either the doctor pulls the cells out and kills 'em, or he destroys 'em with pills. Poison, anyone?

I'm not a doctor; but then, I'm not trying to stop them from doing their jobs. I've done enough research on this topic to know the tools and procedures involved in most abortions.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

That's not what I'm implying. I don't know about you, but at school, we learn about these things known as contraceptives, they, oh, I don't know, GREATLY REDUCE THE RISK OF PREGNANCY? You can stack 'em too, oh look! This spermicide can be combined with this condom! And the morning-after pill, too! And the regular pill! Gasp!

And don't go and bust out the "OH WELL THESE THINGS FAIL". Oh really? They work most of the time. It's an exception when people get pregnant. Why would most people use 'em if they failed so often?

Here is a fact sheet on contraceptive failure rates. Please educate yourself.

Contraception is great; it DOES greatly reduce the risk of pregnancy - but it can fail. There is no magic method; even tubal ligation and vasectomy have a failure rate.

You're not a woman, so you've obviously never used hormonal birth control - but since you're happily judging women, you might want to learn a little about it. It's not an option for everyone. Many women have intolerable side effects to the pill, the patch, the implant, the injection... it's not always as easy as remembering a pill every morning. Non-hormonal alternatives typically have much higher failure rates, so some women are at a disadvantage from the get-go.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

If a poor woman knows she's poor and decides to have sex without taking necessary precautions, then she'd better live up to what she's doing. She's not living in a shittier situation. Are mothers honestly so selfish nowadays that they'd kill their own unborn fetuses just to save themselves? I'm not a girl, but I'd feel pretty goddamn guilty if I got a girl pregnant and ran away, which is basically an "abortion" for a guy. Also, I don't hear talk of the baby suffering. The way you say it, it's all about the mother, isn't it?

(1) You know there's a failure rate to all "precautions," so why are you acting as though there isn't? Does it make it easier to believe that all poor women deserve what they get?

(2) Would you mind being forcefully strapped down in a hospital and having your bone marrow removed (a considerably painful process) against your will to save the life of a stranger?

(3) There's no evidence that first and second trimester fetii suffer, and actually a fairly substantial amount of evidence that they don't.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

And it's not my punishment. It's called having respect for your family, or your future family.

You're the one who called it a "lesson." They need to see consequences, right? They need to learn their lesson, don't they? Newsflash: that's a fucking punishment.

Originally Posted by Doomfishy

With that logic, you're morally obligated to produce every infant you possibly can. Every menstrual cycle represents one more egg that could've become someone unique who would eventually have wanted to live.

However, I would NOT EVER want to be brought into the world as a "punishment" for someone who didn't want me and hadn't actually done anything wrong in the first place. If you'd want your existence to be based in someone else's misery, fine. But I wouldn't.



Because everyone knows exactly how their partners will react to an unintended pregnancy. It's not like men ever lie, or anything.



Sex is not a crime. It does not deserve a punishment.



Are you arguing that reflexes/chemical reactions = consciousness? Plants have chemical reactions taking place on the cellular level that direct growth toward certain conditions. It doesn't mean they have feelings. Trust me, your lawn doesn't mind when you mow it.

We know a lot about fetal movement/reflexes/brainwaves. Certainly enough to know that any sort of pain or consciousness are impossible early in a pregnancy, and fairly unlikely until extremely late. We know this because of empirical research, not putting ourselves "in the fetus's metaphorical shoes."



I'm not a doctor; but then, I'm not trying to stop them from doing their jobs. I've done enough research on this topic to know the tools and procedures involved in most abortions.



Here is a fact sheet on contraceptive failure rates. Please educate yourself.

Contraception is great; it DOES greatly reduce the risk of pregnancy - but it can fail. There is no magic method; even tubal ligation and vasectomy have a failure rate.

You're not a woman, so you've obviously never used hormonal birth control - but since you're happily judging women, you might want to learn a little about it. It's not an option for everyone. Many women have intolerable side effects to the pill, the patch, the implant, the injection... it's not always as easy as remembering a pill every morning. Non-hormonal alternatives typically have much higher failure rates, so some women are at a disadvantage from the get-go.



(1) You know there's a failure rate to all "precautions," so why are you acting as though there isn't? Does it make it easier to believe that all poor women deserve what they get?

(2) Would you mind being forcefully strapped down in a hospital and having your bone marrow removed (a considerably painful process) against your will to save the life of a stranger?

(3) There's no evidence that first and second trimester fetii suffer, and actually a fairly substantial amount of evidence that they don't.



You're the one who called it a "lesson." They need to see consequences, right? They need to learn their lesson, don't they? Newsflash: that's a fucking punishment.

Not in the least. An egg cell has half the gametes of a normal cell; it was not life by itself. It could not have become someone else without sexual activity. Now, if you decide to seemingly give it the so-called "miracle" of life and then take it away...Tantalus, anyone?

It's not punishment. It's a responsibility. Maybe the media frowns upon kids as some punishment, due to celebrities that can't keep their legs shut yet unceasingly blame their kids for their own reckless activities, but kids aren't punishment. I think it's not the part about accepting responsibilities that's wrong, but the mentality of mothers that see their own children as punishment.

That's horrible. As you've said, no one wants to be treated like that. You can either shove 'em aside with abortion, claiming that you're gonna treat them like dirt or something if you don't, OR people could be good mothers and love their children because obviously they decided to make love with a person they love really much and should keep the proof of it.

Just because you have the tendency to think that men run away from pregnancies, this is mostly due to the media and those immature gits that deserve a spanking from their mommies from running away from responsibility. In the real world, it isn't so bleak. Many men don't just run. It's not like just because a few people act like gits, they're all like that.

Of course sex doesn't deserve a punishment. A baby isn't a punishment. Who's the one claiming that the baby is a punishment? I'm saying that it's a responsibility; you're the one claiming that "no one would like to be a punishment", yet saying that the product of sex is a punishment. If sex isn't a crime, then why do you consider the consequences of it a punishment? Consequences aren't always bad, you know. And sex isn't the crime, the crime is abortion. Like how picking up groceries from the store isn't a crime. It's not paying for them that's the crime; you're not taking responsibility for your actions. Of course, you could simply reverse the action by placing back the grocery, but I hardly think you could place back the sperm from an ovary.

It's not the matter of feeling or not. So, in this sense, your comment is irrelevant. The context in which the statement appeared was describing how a fetus was not alive before it reacted to stimulus, which lead to the argument of whether the fetus reacted to stimulus because it could not convey its feelings, which lead to the argument that science states an apple reacts to stimuli but obviously cannot determine the same for a fetus, as no sick scientist is gonna poke fetuses to see if they react. The point being that you CANNOT consider the fetus not alive as it cannot be proven NOT to respond to stimuli, unlike a plant. Stimuli isn't always feeling. It's reactions based on response to any change in the surrounding environment. Basic book definition, but works either ways.

I've done enough research to know that the methods of abortion kill the fetus via chemical or physical removal. It's not pretty; I'd never want to see anything eliminated in such a horrible way. People say that lethal injection is terrible. Is using chemical pills to kill an unborn fetus any different? Don't just assume I don't know anything. The vaccuum method? It's cruel, but at least normal humans don't have a contemporary execution method. Maybe like somehow creating some weird sci-fi warphole over a farmer, and dropping him in the middle of a city, only to be killed a few seconds later? Although I know the vaccuum isn't some sci-fi warphole. Point being, it's even more ridiculous than actual executions.

Please stop assuming that I am not educated. Failure rate? Let's see...Male Condom. 17.4%. Let's assume that 20% of the sperm penetrates the barrier of the condom, since 20% is such a nice, round number. The condom, as you are obviously well educated, prevents much of the sperm from traveling up the vagina. Then you have the two pills. Combined failure rate? 8.7%, ALONE. With 100% of the sperm traveling up the vagina. See where I'm getting at? .2 x .087. What's that? Significantly less, isn't it? It's obviously not that simple, but failure is an exception. There you go. Please refrain from questioning the intellect of others.

You're not a man, so you don't have any idea how it feels to use a condom. Neither do I, since I'm not a man either, being just a WIDDLE DUMB KID WHO APPARENTLY DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING, but I hear that condoms don't feel all that great. That, and a pill isn't the only thing you can use. There are things called SPERMICIDES and FEMALE CONDOMS; shouldn't you have known about them? Seeing as you OBVIOUSLY KNOW MORE THAN ME, AND I DISAGREE WITH YOU, THEREFORE I AM UNEDUCATED AND DESERVE TO HAVE THE FACTS I ALREADY KNOW DICTATED UPON ME ONCE AGAIN. You've never thought about just how easy it is for a man to get a girl pregnant and just run away...or maybe you have. Maybe you have thought about it all too much. Your way of getting the same freedom? Abortion. Point being, if the MAN was any sort of MAN, he'd stay. Hell, if I somehow got someone pregnant, I'd stay. Doesn't matter how much money I have. I'd stay. Of course, I'd never do it in the first place, seeing as I'm just a naive brat who OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T KNOW MUCH BECAUSE I'M NOT AGREEING WITH YOU. Just because they don't agree doesn't mean they aren't aware of the facts, thanks.

1. You know there's a chance that you'd suddenly blow up, or a meteor would suddenly hit the earth and blow it up, or aliens might invade, or your car might break down, why are you acting like there isn't? It's called "negligible", like the air resistance acting upon an extremely dense object attracted by the earth's gravity is negligible. Yes, the air does slow a falling cannonball. But not much. Remember Galileo? In this sense, the percentage of failure is NEGLIGIBLE. All you have to blame is HUMAN ERROR, which, I remind you, is HUMAN error. Look at your own evidence, for Confucius's sake. PERFECT USE: 2%. AVERAGE USE: 17%. Nobody is perfect, but hell, if they wanna use it, they should at least use it right. I mean, maybe a 1-2% change would be understandable for average use, but come on? 15%? Seriously. So it's partially their fault for NOT USING IT RIGHT. Unless you wanna do the egotism thing and be a god and therefore inapplicable to normal human moral standards. Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky, anyone?

2. No, unless I'd forcefully damaged the bone marrow of said person, OF MY OWN CHOOSING, like how having normal sex is my own choosing. Then, it'd be pretty justified, because I'd be paying back for what I did to them. Of course, I'd probably just BUY bone marrow, but if that was the only way of accepting the consequences of my actions, I would do it. I wouldn't just sit there and go, "Uhm, whoops. *Tosses aside* Hehe, let's do it again~! ^ .^"

3. Where is this evidence? You have provided contraception data; this is MUCH, MUCH more relevant. Why not provide this instead of the obvious?

Well, maybe I called it something else. Not every lesson is a punishment. You go to school to learn. You have lessons to learn. Newsflash: School is a fucking punishment, right? WRONG. Where would you be without lessons? Probably unable to comprehend that given the same facts, people come up with different conclusions, and just because they think differently and decide to be optimistic about the consequences of their actions and treat even "lessons" as something good, that they do know the facts.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Completely relevant. You know how much you'd have missed out on had you not been born? For one thing, the ABILITY to think.

I would have missed out on nothing. Because I would not have existed. I can't take my experiences from life and apply them to a world where I don't exist. None of us would care if we weren't born, because... well, we wouldn't have been born to care about it.

Usually, it is just as simple as "catch him and make him pay". Call the police, do everything. It's illegal to neglect children; there are child abuse laws that make child support legal. What else are the police and courts there for besides to "protect, serve, and obey" the law?

I really know nothing about these laws, but why the hell are there so few women actually receiving the money they should be getting if it's so damn easy to make the guy pay?
You're living in a fantasy world if you think men DON'T run off and never pay. Of all the people I have known, a depressing amount have had deadbeat dads.

It's not the question of whether you consent to motherhood or not. As I brought up later, there are contraceptives. But there's that slight chance they'll fail. If they do fail, you shouldn't just kill the fetus, should you? Because that's pretty selfish of the mother. Sex is reproduction; wanna do it? Accept each and every consequences. That's a bit like saying you're making a cake but you're not gonna clean up the dirty dishes afterwards.

If they do fail, should the woman have to just toss her life away for the fetus? Why the hell do the fetus' rights supersede the woman's? She's a person, the fetus is NOT, and the law agrees with me.
Sex is not just for reproduction and it hasn't been for a long, long time.
And really, it's not about selfishness. It's about knowing what's best for yourself, your partner and your child. If you're not ready, bringing a child in is only going to cause suffering. Isn't it selfish to bring a child into the world knowing you can't care for it?

You can forget to take a pill, but its quite hard to forget to put on a condom, or apply spermicide. We are human, and there ARE errors. But you're claiming that I should consider the extraneous circumstances under which birth control fails?

There's a lot of room for accidents when it comes to condoms. Even if you're NOT an idiot there's quite a number of ways it can go wrong.
And yes, you should consider it, because it happens more often than you think. e_e

But the woman doesn't learn a lesson. The cycle repeats itself, and what you get is an increase in abortions. You have shown that my opinion is not a good resolution, but neither is yours. Women who get abortions will just go have sex, knowing that they can just get another abortion when they're pregnant.

Not true. If you'll look a few pages back, Doomfishy and I were debating how often women actually use abortions as birth control. And really, we both agreed that if it happens at all, the number is very low. Many women (about half) actually use birth control, and either messed up or had a failure and the majority will NOT just go get an abortion any time they get pregnant. It is expensive and it is physically taxing; most women have realized that abortions are NOT for birth control.

I care about the lives that get ruined too, thank you very much. But letting women abort their babies so freely is ruining society itself.

Yes, let's have it your way and outlaw abortion. (Or at least, that seems to be what you're pushing for.) How will society fare when we're desperately overpopulated and swimming in kids again? Are YOU planning to take them in?

As our media portrays sex as some glamorous, popular and cool thing to do, more people will have sex, and just get abortions to make up for it. Abortions are a temporary solution, but harm society in the long run. You don't ruin the lives of the family, you ruin the life of the woman, by letting her run free and letting her think that she is invulnerable to the consequences of her sexual activities.

You really believe that women will just get abortions at their will? Do you think that all women are SO STUPID as to think that an unplanned pregnancy can't happen to them? Some women do think that, yes. But most people are smart enough to realize that oh, wait, we CAN get pregnant and as such they're using birth control.

I'm not saying my method is the best, but I hope it makes mothers who would consider having sex and aborting the baby to have second thoughts. Because it really is awful. It creates an unhappy family, or a person who is simply not willing to accept the consequences of reproduction.

An unhappy family? Tell that to all the women who have had abortions AND families.
Abortion IS a consequence of pregnancy. To me, it's way more responsible than having the kid and neglecting it until it runs away and moves in with a friend. :\
Do you really want these people procreating anyway? Seriously?

Now, if the media wasn't selling sex like mad and just making it all glamorous and all that, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be seeing those 13-year-old non-virgins at our school and around it. There would be less need for abortions, if we were educated to be more responsible.

Okay. The pre-teen demographic makes up for a very small population of all women who get abortions; it's mostly the twenty-somethings you should be pointing a finger at.
Also, teenage girls have been having sex since the dawn of time. The media has nothing to do with it. The only difference is that it used to be acceptable for a 13 year old to have sex, because people got married way younger. Take away the media, teenagers aren't going to stop wanting to have sex.

Note that it's not the baby that ruined her life. That's blaming a baby for her own decisions. You've done it, live up to it. Or find a way. Nothing to be mad at a baby for. Sex is love, isn't it? A baby is just proof of your love. Don't love each other? Maybe you should've never had sex.

If you really want to point the finger, I would assume you should point it at the people who didn't let her get an abortion when she needed one.
Please tell me you're being sarcastic, and don't actually believe that ridiculously childish notion of sex.

Usually, it is just as simple as "catch him and make him pay". Call the police, do everything. It's illegal to neglect children; there are child abuse laws that make child support legal. What else are the police and courts there for besides to "protect, serve, and obey" the law?

It isn't that simple. For one, the man has to have the money to give before the woman can receive it. Some of those 'deadbeat dads' are unemployed, or in prison, or working under the table. There is no way for a woman to collect child support under those circumstances.

I've done enough research to know that the methods of abortion kill the fetus via chemical or physical removal. It's not pretty; I'd never want to see anything eliminated in such a horrible way.

Most people don't think of abortion as being pretty. They see it as a last resort when things go wrong--the condom broke, or one parent lost their job and they can't afford the expense of a pregnancy, or the egg got to the uterus despite the tube being tied. The only good thing about abortion is that it prevents what some people see as a worse alternative.

Also, I've mentioned this earlier, but how do you expect to actually stop women from having abortions? Even if Roe v. Wade got overturned for some reason, do you think that would stop women? No, they would just turn to other, less safe means. They would try using herbal remedies to induce a miscarriage, or there's always the trusty coathanger technique. Both of which carry more risks than having an abortion that's performed under the supervision of a trained medical professional. Is that a preferable situation to you?

And while I'm thinking about it, this is a bit OT, but do you know which group of women tend to have the highest rate of complications from abortions? Pro-life activists, because they often don't follow the doctor's post-op instructions. I'll leave it to you to figure out the implications of that little fact.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Yes, but if you had actually read the context of my reply, you would have noted that Kah claimed that I couldn't possibly have known as much about abortion as a doctor. Well, that is true. But does she?

Me? I'm sorry, but if you can't quote it, I never said it.

Wow i know this topic was gonna be a a heated one.
Abortion has so many emotional ties to it so of course its gonna be heated, First off let me say even thow my avi is boy im a girl.
Theres a lil lie floating around where i life that once you get an abortion you well never have a child again becouse of the damiges that it has caused.
Very much a lie becouse im here.
My mother 4 years before i was born was raped. And how the story goes after the second month she had the abortion.
A child so be made in love, not the case here
So Now im connected at a almost perisnal level with abortion.
My thoughts are simple to every person they should have the right to choose. No matter WHAT!
Sombody thinks it inmoral to have an abortion then go right ahead and keep it.
(my friend who was useing a condom and was on the pill recently had a baby because on that night the condom broke and her pill failed.. 23 hours she spent in laber)
So if your pro-choise AWSOME
but dont push your views into others lives.
People are gonna get ride of the unwonted child anyways..

Now on this i bet your thinkin there always adoption. Well lets look at the number
at this moment theres about 100000 children wonting to be adopted right now.
IN one year 26 million women get an abortion...(these are not exact numbers but pretty close) in the us alone.
just take these numbers and think on it. think of a perfect world solition vs. the real world

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Not in the least. An egg cell has half the gametes of a normal cell; it was not life by itself. It could not have become someone else without sexual activity. Now, if you decide to seemingly give it the so-called "miracle" of life and then take it away...Tantalus, anyone?

Stick to your point. If your parents hadn't had sex when they did, and that egg had just been flushed out with the next menstruation, you would not be here. Same as if you'd been aborted.

If you're going to argue that abortion is wrong because it prevents the eventual existence of a person who would probably want to exist, then so is avoiding pregnancy. Once that egg is gone, there will never be another quite like it. That unique individual (who might have been you) will never exist.

It's an illogical, sentimental argument. But then, I'm not the one who made it.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

It's not punishment. It's a responsibility. Maybe the media frowns upon kids as some punishment, due to celebrities that can't keep their legs shut yet unceasingly blame their kids for their own reckless activities, but kids aren't punishment. I think it's not the part about accepting responsibilities that's wrong, but the mentality of mothers that see their own children as punishment.

Maybe you don't want to accept that you're advocating the punishment of women for something that isn't criminal, but that doesn't change the fact that you are.

Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal, usually in response to disobedience, defiance, or behavior deemed morally wrong by individual, governmental, or religious principles.

Unwanted pregnancy/forced childbirth = DEFINITELY unpleasant. Avoidable via abortion.
You have openly stated that you think having sex without wanting or being capable of caring for a child is morally wrong.

In your view, if a woman has sex willingly and becomes pregnant, it's her fault, and she deserves the unpleasant consequences (punishment).
If a woman does not have sex willingly (rape) and becomes pregnant, it's not her fault, and she doesn't deserve the unpleasant consequences (punishment).

It's not like a fetus conceived via rape is any less of a fetus, so don't even start with the "It's all about the BAYBEEZ!" jabber. It's not. It's about you and your disdain for women who enjoy their own sexuality and aren't sufficiently punished.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

That's horrible. As you've said, no one wants to be treated like that. You can either shove 'em aside with abortion, claiming that you're gonna treat them like dirt or something if you don't, OR people could be good mothers and love their children because obviously they decided to make love with a person they love really much and should keep the proof of it.

Children aren't little love tokens that hang on the wall. They're an extremely demanding physical, mental, emotional, and financial obligation. Deciding not to continue a pregnancy on a whim because you're incapable of meeting a child's needs is NOT "treating them like dirt," it's responsibly opting out of an obligation that you cannot fulfill. The degree of love for one's partner has nothing to do with it. Some women have very wanted and loved children with strangers (for example, via a sperm bank), and some couples who love each other deeply decide that they never want children.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Just because you have the tendency to think that men run away from pregnancies, this is mostly due to the media and those immature gits that deserve a spanking from their mommies from running away from responsibility. In the real world, it isn't so bleak. Many men don't just run. It's not like just because a few people act like gits, they're all like that.

Only 61% of custodial mothers actually receive the child support they're owed. That's barely better than a coin flip. Custodial parents living in poverty are actually less likely to receive payments than those living above the poverty line.

I'm not sure which 'real world' you're living in.

And if a boy is still young enough to receive a spanking from his mother, he is TOO YOUNG to responsibly parent a child. I pity everyone involved.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Of course sex doesn't deserve a punishment. A baby isn't a punishment. Who's the one claiming that the baby is a punishment? I'm saying that it's a responsibility; you're the one claiming that "no one would like to be a punishment", yet saying that the product of sex is a punishment. If sex isn't a crime, then why do you consider the consequences of it a punishment? Consequences aren't always bad, you know. And sex isn't the crime, the crime is abortion. Like how picking up groceries from the store isn't a crime. It's not paying for them that's the crime; you're not taking responsibility for your actions. Of course, you could simply reverse the action by placing back the grocery, but I hardly think you could place back the sperm from an ovary.

It's the very definition of punishment.
Please go back and read your own diatribe against teenagers and lustful sex. It has nothing to do with you, at all, but you just can't stand it. They need to face "consequences." Your analogy just supports that conclusion: people shouldn't just be able to enjoy sex without somehow paying for it. Except that sex isn't a product, it doesn't belong to someone else - nobody is "owed" anything when two people have sex and enjoy it.

A better analogy: When you go camping, you know there's a small chance that you could be attacked by a wild animal. Most people do their best to avoid this by storing their food securely so it doesn't attract predators, but that doesn't mean a bear couldn't still wander into your camp.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

It's not the matter of feeling or not. So, in this sense, your comment is irrelevant. The context in which the statement appeared was describing how a fetus was not alive before it reacted to stimulus, which lead to the argument of whether the fetus reacted to stimulus because it could not convey its feelings, which lead to the argument that science states an apple reacts to stimuli but obviously cannot determine the same for a fetus, as no sick scientist is gonna poke fetuses to see if they react. The point being that you CANNOT consider the fetus not alive as it cannot be proven NOT to respond to stimuli, unlike a plant. Stimuli isn't always feeling. It's reactions based on response to any change in the surrounding environment. Basic book definition, but works either ways.

I think fetii are alive, just like apples and trees. But I eat plenty of apples and have plenty of possessions made of wood. Being alive doesn't garner ANY sympathy from me; being conscious and having the capacity for pain does.

And you are majorly wrong in the research department. You should probably run a Google search before making claims out of ignorance. We know quite a bit about fetii. It's not terribly uncommon for on unhealthy fetus to be operated on. There has been a LOT of research - veritable shit tons - on fetal development. We understand quite a bit about the fetal brain. When the areas that control consciousness and pain perception aren't functional, pain and consciousness are not possible.

While you're googling, type in "argument from ignorance."

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

I've done enough research to know that the methods of abortion kill the fetus via chemical or physical removal. It's not pretty; I'd never want to see anything eliminated in such a horrible way.

Appendectomies aren't pretty, either. Trust me on that one. Should we ban them?

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

People say that lethal injection is terrible. Is using chemical pills to kill an unborn fetus any different? Don't just assume I don't know anything. The vaccuum method? It's cruel, but at least normal humans don't have a contemporary execution method. Maybe like somehow creating some weird sci-fi warphole over a farmer, and dropping him in the middle of a city, only to be killed a few seconds later? Although I know the vaccuum isn't some sci-fi warphole. Point being, it's even more ridiculous than actual executions.

Jesus Christ. Okay:
(1) Lethal injection kills a thinking, feeling human being. Abortion does not.
(2) You can't be cruel to something that can't feel. Go ahead: try to be cruel to a chair or an apple. Good luck, sir.
(3) A farmer is a thinking, feeling human being. Again: a fetus isn't.
(4) Do you realize that by your definition of "cruel/ridiculous," chopping a stump up for firewood is arguably worse than hitting someone in the face? At least they didn't get chopped up!

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Please stop assuming that I am not educated. Failure rate? Let's see...Male Condom. 17.4%. Let's assume that 20% of the sperm penetrates the barrier of the condom, since 20% is such a nice, round number. The condom, as you are obviously well educated, prevents much of the sperm from traveling up the vagina. Then you have the two pills. Combined failure rate? 8.7%, ALONE. With 100% of the sperm traveling up the vagina. See where I'm getting at? .2 x .087. What's that? Significantly less, isn't it? It's obviously not that simple, but failure is an exception. There you go. Please refrain from questioning the intellect of others.

I'm questioning your judgment. Assuming (falsely) that every woman can use the pill, and that every man can/will use condoms, you still have a 1.51% failure rate.

If you go to school with 500 girls who are using this method, 7 or 8 of them will become pregnant within a year. That's a lot better than the several hundred that would get pregnant each year if they weren't using protection, but it's not like you can ignore those girls just because there are only a few of them.

And please, consider this: this is an annual failure rate. If you use this method for 20 years, there's a 30.2% chance you will become pregnant during that time. Roughly 1-in-3. It's not uncommon for a woman to face at least one unwanted or unintended pregnancy in her life, even if she does everything right.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

You're not a man, so you don't have any idea how it feels to use a condom. Neither do I, since I'm not a man either, being just a WIDDLE DUMB KID WHO APPARENTLY DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING, but I hear that condoms don't feel all that great.

I know what sex with a condom feels like. They reduce sensitivity for males and females.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

That, and a pill isn't the only thing you can use. There are things called SPERMICIDES and FEMALE CONDOMS; shouldn't you have known about them?

Female condoms can't be used with male condoms, and they're not as effective. Spermicides can cause allergic reactions (where's the last place you want a painful rash...?), and general discomfort on sensitive skin (I have this problem).

There are plenty of options. I'm not disagreeing with you. But not everyone can use every form of contraception, and even if you spend hundreds of dollars (these things aren't cheap) to ensure you're using every contraceptive you possibly can, there's just no way to be 100% in the clear.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Seeing as you OBVIOUSLY KNOW MORE THAN ME, AND I DISAGREE WITH YOU, THEREFORE I AM UNEDUCATED AND DESERVE TO HAVE THE FACTS I ALREADY KNOW DICTATED UPON ME ONCE AGAIN.

I think you're only partially uneducated, and only because you're young. I think your main motivation is that you're into your first few years post-puberty, and part of you really wants to have sex, even though you know you should wait. So when you see your peers having their cake and eating it, too, you get angry. You want them to pay for not being as wise as you.

Basically, I don't think you're stupid. I think you're malicious. But adolescence sucks, so most kids are.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

You've never thought about just how easy it is for a man to get a girl pregnant and just run away...or maybe you have. Maybe you have thought about it all too much. Your way of getting the same freedom? Abortion. Point being, if the MAN was any sort of MAN, he'd stay. Hell, if I somehow got someone pregnant, I'd stay.

There is a lot more to raising a family than just forcing the man to stay.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Doesn't matter how much money I have. I'd stay. Of course, I'd never do it in the first place, seeing as I'm just a naive brat who OBVIOUSLY DOESN'T KNOW MUCH BECAUSE I'M NOT AGREEING WITH YOU. Just because they don't agree doesn't mean they aren't aware of the facts, thanks.

Actually, yeah, money matters. Babies aren't cheap.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

1. You know there's a chance that you'd suddenly blow up, or a meteor would suddenly hit the earth and blow it up, or aliens might invade, or your car might break down, why are you acting like there isn't? It's called "negligible", like the air resistance acting upon an extremely dense object attracted by the earth's gravity is negligible. Yes, the air does slow a falling cannonball. But not much. Remember Galileo? In this sense, the percentage of failure is NEGLIGIBLE.

Do you really think that getting a girl pregnant while using a condom is as unlikely as an alien invasion?

2-17% is not negligible. Not even close.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

All you have to blame is HUMAN ERROR, which, I remind you, is HUMAN error. Look at your own evidence, for Confucius's sake. PERFECT USE: 2%. AVERAGE USE: 17%. Nobody is perfect, but hell, if they wanna use it, they should at least use it right. I mean, maybe a 1-2% change would be understandable for average use, but come on? 15%? Seriously. So it's partially their fault for NOT USING IT RIGHT. Unless you wanna do the egotism thing and be a god and therefore inapplicable to normal human moral standards. Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky, anyone?

Human error can be as basic as this: not realizing a condom is broken, using a condom that has been kept in a warm area for too long, not realizing the condom has slipped too much... and so on. Mistakes happen. They don't deserve punishment.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

2. No, unless I'd forcefully damaged the bone marrow of said person, OF MY OWN CHOOSING, like how having normal sex is my own choosing. Then, it'd be pretty justified, because I'd be paying back for what I did to them. Of course, I'd probably just BUY bone marrow, but if that was the only way of accepting the consequences of my actions, I would do it. I wouldn't just sit there and go, "Uhm, whoops. *Tosses aside* Hehe, let's do it again~! ^ .^"

You'd let an innocent, thinking, feeling person die to save yourself the convenience and short-term pain? Heartless. Then again, I guess you're not a dirty slut who deserves what she gets, right?

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

3. Where is this evidence? You have provided contraception data; this is MUCH, MUCH more relevant. Why not provide this instead of the obvious?

Delivered.

Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony.

Well, maybe I called it something else. Not every lesson is a punishment. You go to school to learn. You have lessons to learn. Newsflash: School is a fucking punishment, right? WRONG. Where would you be without lessons? Probably unable to comprehend that given the same facts, people come up with different conclusions, and just because they think differently and decide to be optimistic about the consequences of their actions and treat even "lessons" as something good, that they do know the facts.[/QUOTE]

I'm really not in the mood for linguistic limbo. Having a baby as a teenager can destroy a child's opportunities. She and her infant will be less likely to attend college, have a satisfying career, and live a financially secure life. Forced childbirth is not an education; it's a traumatizing experience. You can be optimistic about being forced to have a baby you don't want, but fuck, your optimism isn't going to cover diaper costs.

You can romanticize teenage pregnancy all you want, but it doesn't change the reality.

When you go to school, please learn how to argue without pissing the hell out of people. Thanks Doomfishy, for imposing your clearly biased values upon me. I don't like to hear about how I'm an idealist and you're supposedly some mature and how the real world works. I don't know what kind of crappy pasts you have encountered, but most of my friends still live with their parents, happily married. So, just because you have some crappy life, you're gonna just say, "oh well, parents must suck, let's just kill the baby so parents don't screw their lives over". Keep in mind, YOU'RE THE PARENTS.

Where's your caring for humans now? Where's the caring about the child's life? Hell, we all know that there would be no need to save the fetus from a crappy life had the mother already not planned to give it one. Don't take retribution on your own children just because of the crap in the past. Don't like something other people did? Don't do it.

You don't care about others; it's pretty much evidenced in your abusive language directed towards OTHERS, rather than the topic at hand. An eye for an eye. This is directed at the style; fallacy will follow, but not much. I'm sick of this BS.

I quit. Now, I'm pretty sure Doomfishy and others will rejoice and gloat, and sure I'll be angry. You can all gang up on me if you want, which is precisely what you are doing. I thank Jayn for showing me that some people that support abortions can discuss, at least, without totally trolling and just simply criticizing the intelligence of others.

Frankly, maybe I never was against abortion, but it's people like you that give it a bad name. Like abortion itself, some of you shy away from responsibility, only to attack in groups. With something designed to make me feel bad.

Now, I COULD attempt to refute your claims, but why bother? I don't want to be called an ignorant git by some kind of "realistic" person who shies away from any thought of responsibility. Abortion is responsibility. Treating everyone equally is responsibility. Responsibility is NOT flaming people for their differing views.

Think a bit before you hurt others with your words. Ever wondered about oppression? It's because a bunch of you powerful people decide to come over and start throwing names. Maybe you've never experienced it yourself, seeing as you obviously don't like to take a stand for what you actually do, and like to eliminate the consequences of your actions. Because seriously, what is abortion?

3. Delivered? So abortion IS like lethal injection, then, just for babies. It even has, oh, I don't know, the same shots? Anesthetic and poisons. Ever heard of times where anesthetic has failed? But you couldn't really care less for pain, I mean you mothers were all set up for giving the child a hard life anyways. Because, really, the mother COULD'VE given the child a good life. But no, you just had to say "OH THE PARENTS ARE GOING TO GIVE IT A BAD LIFE" and you just HAD to abort it. So, it's the mom's fault for being such an asshole to her baby. There you go.

And this is directed mostly at Doom. So no offense to anyone else. Not really at others, since you haven't been totally ranting and calling me some dumbass. Thanks, you really know how to make a guy shut up. Oh, look at you, you're so powerful. Oh, there's so many of you and one of me. Why not just call me some names and make me shut up? Because really, there's not much more to a debate besides calling the opposition an idiot, in your mind. And I really tried hard, not to use offensive nouns. Because I restrain myself. Unlike some people. You don't change minds by calling others names. Maybe you're too "realistic" to understand that.

You can attempt to disprove my facts all you want with your name-calling, but all it does is show how you're just reluctant to do your best to provide for your children. If you weren't so hesitant and just WILLING to do your best for the child, and for the results of the sex, then maybe you wouldn't need the abortion.

Don't shy away from responsibility AND the topic. Don't just blame reality for the consequences of your actions and flame other people until they leave. Until you do so, I will remain against abortion. Because you have not changed my views. All you have done is discourage the expression of my views with your inappropriate satire and inferiority complex. Just because someone is different from you doesn't mean they're an uneducated git. Or maybe you're too irresponsible to even accept that.

I quit. You insult my intelligence, and my views. And I have not changed my mind. Want me to see things in a different light? Show me why it's better. Don't just call me some random stupid dumbass. Thanks, bye.

Cao Cao said, "To each his own." I add: "Unless you're being a stuck-up git about it."

One last parting word, in case you actually read this again...'pro-abortionist' is a horrible term to use. No one that I know of is for women having abortions--the ideal is for women to not be in that situation in the first place. I simply want safe abortions to be available for those women who decide to seek one out.

Alright, I'll try not to use it any more. I don't recall using it before; sorry if I had, though.

Never meant to be so offensive, but I tend to lose control when people start ranting...

Well, bye then.

You cannot learn about the 'real world' by looking out your window and examining your friends. Your neighborhood is probably not a representative sample. Judgments based upon the happy, financially-stable people around you don't extend to everyone else. Sorry.

I don't think everyone is a bad parent, and I don't think that every man turns tail on his partner the instant he finds out she's pregnant. But it does happen, all the time.

If you want to leave the debate, go ahead. I'm not going to gloat about it. I've already said that I don't think you're stupid, but there IS a lot that you haven't bothered to research. You've been taking personal assumptions (fetii feel pain, men almost always pay child support, etc.) and posting them as though they were fact. Your statements are always going to get ripped to shreds if you do this in a debate thread.

Saying that you "COULD refute" my claims isn't an argument. If you can refute them, do it. Research your claims. Provide evidence.

And please, lest I choke on my soda, do NOT claim that I'm oppressing you in the same breath with which you argue that I should be forced into remaining pregnant and giving birth against my will (a "consequence" that you, by virtue of your gender, will NEVER face).

I post a study presented in the American Medical Association's journal about how the capacity for fetal pain doesn't develop until extremely late in a pregnancy - long after elective abortions are illegal - and you completely ignore it (after asking for the very proof I provided!) and go off on a tangent about lethal injection (and, ironically enough, suggest that I don't care about a fetus's pain).

I don't want you to shut up. I want you to consider the evidence and research your own opinions before you spout them as though they were gospel. And I'm certainly not ganging up on you - the only person I speak for is myself. If you want to develop a persecution complex, be my guest, but I'm not going to coddle a poor argument, especially when it concerns MY rights.

I realize that you probably think it's just awful that I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice my happiness, mental/physical well-being, relationships, education, and financial stability to bring a child into this world that I'm incapable of caring for at this time. After all, isn't that what women are for? Nurturing, mothering, sacrificing, and leaving enough time to have dinner on the table by 5:30 sharp?

Except, well, no.

I think your perspective is malicious. I think many of your arguments are ignorant and baseless. I'm not going to sugarcoat the fact that you ignore or draw illogical conclusions from the facts that I present. That's not "name-calling," it's cutting the bullshit.

Except, well, you're overly pessimistic, selfish, and conservative and think that I'm apparently biased on the sole fact that you are a woman.

No. It's not all women are cut out to be. Haven't I said that the man should take responsibility, too? Can't handle it? Can't handle closing your legs, either?

I don't know WHY you'd even consider me to be spreading them like gospel. Don't want me to shut up? Don't kid me. YOU obviously think that your stuff is true, and I'm ineducated and must be shown the light by you. Who's treating what like gospel now? Your word is not law. Your evidence? Flawed, and disproven by my basic calculations.

Well, EXCUSE ME for not making it clear enough. Perhaps I didn't want to say it, lest you lapse into your "I told you so" phase. Because seriously, you're right. But you digress. The lack of pain to the fetus during abortion does not justify the matter any more. Animals don't feel pain when they're euthanized. So that's okay, isn't it? If you can digress, why can't I? And you never responded to my calculations about birth control...since YOU MIGHT HAVE FORGOTTEN, let me state it again: Birth control failure is an exception. Many methods that are applied during or before intercourse may be simultaneously used for a greater chance of preventing conception. If "humans" actually used it right instead of BLAMING their own mistakes on "human error" (Again, lack of responsibility, anyone?), you'd see a very significant change between the two columns. Point being, "human error" is still your fault. You don't just say, "alright, screw it" and just move on. You accept the consequences of your actions.

You could hardly care less for a fetus's pain. You're too stuck-up in your own selfish and temperamental issues to care about anyone but yourself. Proof is only proof if you accept it. I have shown, constantly, why it is YOUR FAULT, and how you are clearly only using the abortion for your own benefit, rather than for the benefit of your would-be child.

Reality isn't crap unless you decide to make it crap for yourself. Ever wonder why the world isn't "good"? Ever wonder why "good" things are still considered "good"? If you're too incompetent to help yourself, don't just act like the world is made of crap, thanks.

Ever thought on the other side? That just because shit happens to you, it doesn't happen to everyone else. Ever wonder why? Maybe it's because you're too lazy to make your own life better. Under ANY circumstances, you have the ability to become a SUCCESSFUL person. Under ANY circumstances, you have the ability to become a loving, caring, and SUCCESSFUL mother. Doesn't matter how hard you'd have to work, unless it's all about you. But that can't be true, the amount of time you spend cooking, cleaning, doing laundry and taking care of the baby obviously affects the baby too, right? So you're obviously considering the baby when you're too lazy to go the extra mile and take care of it, right?

Since I'm tired of arguing with a self-centered, clearly egotistical woman who only cares about herself, I'll keep it short. And lest you be a hypocrite, don't label me as some ignorant antifeminist. Just because you're not willing to accept the consequences of your actions does not make me prejudiced against woman in general. You're just blaming me to avoid your own misgivings. I could say you're an anti-idealist, but I don't, seeing as that would provide for a very inane discussion.

As would the flaming from you.

NOT oppression? Don't make me laugh. Ever saw the weird kid of your school say something totally weird and different while everyone was jeering at him? Your criticisms of my person, rather than my ideals, are reason for oppression enough. But maybe you'd never have known, seeing as a person like you'd fit nicely into the crowd that are jeering at him. And if they cared anything about the person, they surely would not have jeered, right? If they cared anything of the fetus, they would surely cared and nurtured for it, since they obviously love it, right?

Can't find time? MAKE time. There's always time for the things you love. You can't say you actually care about something if you decide to just toss it aside without first putting all the effort you can to maintain its existence.

But I don't love being called an ignorant antifeminist, so I suppose I won't make any more time for it.

Kaz? You mean me? Because, as I said before, unless you can quote me, I never said it. I'm sorry if this sounds as if I'm being bitchy or whatever [this tends to happen a lot because I type directly what I think], but I don't recall any name-calling or suggesting my intellect was superior.

And [I hope you don't get offended by this too] if you're going to be so affected by such [I don't think I would have ever been able to write that huge wall of text without getting disstracted and then coming back and feeling bad for myself < Just an opinion!], then maybe you're still not suited for debates. When it's about debates, and you think someone broke the thin line between debating and flaming, the best you could do was ignore that part, or reply in an objective manner. At least you would show you are far better than falling for such flamings, don't you think?

Oh, sorry Kaz. Must've mistaken her for you or something...well, your response doesn't make you seem like the type to do it. So sorry about that.

Ahh no don't worry... about me anyway. Just mentioning, if you ever find a post being inflammatory, I recommend either asking a mod if that was the intention, or do something away from the comp for half an hour*. That way one's head cools off and thinks better ;)

*You can guess why I take my time replying :lol:

You can't even get one sentence into a post without calling me pessimistic and selfish (and someone who 'can't handle closing her legs'), but I'm the big "name-caller." Wow.

I'm not pessimistic, but I don't - and will never - romanticize unwanted pregnancy. I'm not selfish, but I'm not going to resign myself to the welfare system if I become pregnant. And I'm definitely not conservative.

Men don't get the morning sickness, the mood swings, and the potentially dangerous/fatal complications. They don't birth the child. Pregnancy is NOT, and never will be, a 50/50 burden on a couple. Since you have already said that you wouldn't undergo a considerably less painful procedure to save the life of an ACTUAL person, but you expect a woman to endure a far more lengthy, permanent, and painful transformation to save a fetus, I can only assume that you're biased.

You do not get to dictate when other people 'close their legs.' It must just burn you up that other people might be out there fucking when you can't, or won't, but it's none of your business. It's not a crime, and you are not so much better than them just because you haven't gotten laid. If that's your personal decision, good for you, but it doesn't make you the ultimate Nice Guy™.

Please, please tell me which evidence I presented was "flawed" or "disproven." Until you point it out, this is yet another baseless claim.

You pointed out that a couple using condoms and birth control pills simultaneously results in a 1.51% chance of pregnancy annually. When you consider that a woman might be sexually active and fertile for 20 years, the odds of becoming pregnant at some point is ~30%. That's a pretty big 'exception,' isn't it?

God forbid a woman ever decide that she's not ready to be a parent. God forbid that SHE HERSELF be the driving force behind the decisions made in her life, rather than chance and unfortunate circumstances. If a 14-year-old girl can't cook, clean, do laundry, bathe baby, change baby, feed baby, and maintain her sanity, she's "too lazy." If she can't make time out of thin-fucking-air, she's a failure. And what if she wants to get an education? What if she wants a career? How self-centered. Doesn't she realize she's not the one in the relationship with the penis?

And don't even start on how much you 'care' about the fetus. You've already said that you're all for abortion in the case of rape, since it's not her "fault" (didn't open her legs like those lustful girls) and she doesn't deserve the "lesson"/"consequences." Is a fetus conceived by rape magically less valuable/alive than any other? And if unwanted pregnancy/forced childbirth is such a happy little lesson, why not force it on the rape victims, too? Bullshit. You know it would be devastating, as ANY forced birth would be.

If you're going to spend ANY time thinking over ANY of this, I'd prefer it'd be this right here: Your world of happily married parents, financial stability, and relative comfort is NOT the reality of everyone. And guess what? You didn't end up where you are because you 'made it that way,' or because you're better than anyone else. You ended up as a child in a comfortable, well-off home because of sheer luck. You weren't born to a scared, penniless 14-year-old girl who didn't want you.

Please, can we try and keep it civil in here? There's no need for all this name calling and whatnot. Everyone step back from the computer and take a deep breath before the thread gets locked.

Originally Posted by finalitycarrot

Haven't I said that the man should take responsibility, too? Can't handle it? Can't handle closing your legs, either?

Sex is an important part of any mature, adult relationship. It is absolutely ridiculous to tell anyone in a loving partnership that they shouldn't be able to have sex unless they intend to care for a baby. It's ridiculous to tell anyone that, really; I don't condone promiscuous sex, but there's nothing wrong with being sexually active if you're responsible about it.

Birth control failure is an exception.

Why the hell is it an exception? It happens. Last I checked, 14% of women having abortions said they used birth control correctly in the month they got pregnant; why are they exceptions? I don't get it.

If "humans" actually used it right instead of BLAMING their own mistakes on "human error" (Again, lack of responsibility, anyone?), you'd see a very significant change between the two columns. Point being, "human error" is still your fault.

Accidents happen, people forget things and make mistakes. Blaming yourself for every little slip-up you make is just going to make you a miserable person. It is not about being irresponsible. Period.

I have shown, constantly, why it is YOUR FAULT, and how you are clearly only using the abortion for your own benefit, rather than for the benefit of your would-be child.

Okay. If I were to have an abortion, I would do it because I am not ready to handle a child. I am not doing it solely for my own benefit, I am doing it because I could never give that child the life they deserve. Obviously, I am a factor, as is the father; I have a future too, as does he, and we would both have to give those up. I am not sorry at all for not wanting to sacrifice absolutely everything for a baby I do not even want. A baby that's going to be unhappy anyway, because in my circumstances there is no way I could give it a good life. No way in hell.
So please, don't talk about women's motives for abortion until you understand them.

Ever thought on the other side? That just because shit happens to you, it doesn't happen to everyone else. Ever wonder why? Maybe it's because you're too lazy to make your own life better. Under ANY circumstances, you have the ability to become a SUCCESSFUL person. Under ANY circumstances, you have the ability to become a loving, caring, and SUCCESSFUL mother. Doesn't matter how hard you'd have to work, unless it's all about you. But that can't be true, the amount of time you spend cooking, cleaning, doing laundry and taking care of the baby obviously affects the baby too, right? So you're obviously considering the baby when you're too lazy to go the extra mile and take care of it, right?

You're not thinking realistically, at all. There are many circumstances I can think of where you cannot possibly be a successful, good mother. You can work your ass off and still end up nowhere. It's not about being lazy or selfish. Some things just are not possible. There are only twenty-four hours in a day. A woman cannot go to school, work, and still find time for her baby. And forget about the idea that she would be so panicked and stressed and worn out that she would probably have a complete mental breakdown within a month.

Can't find time? MAKE time. There's always time for the things you love. You can't say you actually care about something if you decide to just toss it aside without first putting all the effort you can to maintain its existence.

Tell that to all the mothers pulling three minimum wage jobs just to pay the rent.

In this overpopulated world, having a child is [or should be] a priviledge, not a right...

Living in a third country has made me feel for the kids, not the mother, unlike most here. There are some women out there that really shouldn't be mothers, why are they like that? Because they themselves had mothers that shouldn't be mothers... >_>

From a religious (Catholic) aspect, I think abortion is WRONG.#
Argh.

A woman who got raped should have the possibility to get rid of child if she really doesn't want it.

I agree fully with this. I don't think abortion is right, but I don't think that a woman should have to carry a child for 9 months and go through the pain of childbirth of a rape child. 9 months of a reminder.

And what if she becomes attatched to the child after its born and wants to keep it? She'll end up resenting the child.

Then there's the fact that the woman will either have to lie about the child's father, or tell people what happened. I can't imagine that being easy.

A twelve year old girl can't take care of herself let alone a child.

True. But a 12 year old girls are, in marjority, physically unready for sex.
And probably emotionally unready too. 12 is so young! There's maturity issues.

A woman whose life it at risk if she carries through with the pregnancy.

Obviously, the woman's life comes first in this case. But that's not really much of a choice...

Now if someone was too lazy to use a condom or birth control pills it's their own fault and they shouldn't have the choice to remove it.

Remove it? As in the pregnancy?
Yeh. If someone doesn't take the precautions, that are so so readily available, then they have to accept responsibility for their mistakes.

If they can't afford to raise the child themselves there is always adoption. This is one of the reasons why I feel so strongly against abortion... Infertile women who want a child to love and care for have so much trouble trying to adopt.. And a pregnant teenage girl can walk into a clinic and leave with their baby in a dish?

So, what are your views on the subject?

Abortion doesn't make you un-pregnant. No such thing.
It makes you the mother of a dead baby.

It's not an easy choice for most women to make... But there are so many other options if they can't care for it.

Abortion is currently illegal in both N. Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
However, women from N.I can go to England to have an abortion. In the R.O.I it is illegal to do this.
I think this works as a deterrant.
"Back street" abortions don't happen here... In fact, the only time I've ever heard of this was in Dirty Dancing... >.<

Also to make something clear:
Abortion is NOT murder.

The law says that murder only goes for people who are alive and born.
So as long as it's a fetus, it does not count as murder.

Baaah feotus, hate that word! It's a baby :[
I suppose that's a matter of opinion though, but I never like to regard an unorn baby as a feotus.
(Correct spelling for those in the UK)

Abortion might not be murder under law, but I still think it is. With abortion, you are ending life. It mightn't be fully developed, but it is developing, surely that's a sign of life?

People who are pro-choice always say that it's the woman's body. That is true.
Women should know to use contraception though. It's not a hard choice to make.
I'm being a little hypocritical regarding my religion, in saying that contraception should be used.
(Catholisism does not allow sex before marraige, contraception or abortion).
But taking a pill everyday, or having an implant inserted has less moral obligation that abortion. IMO of course.

I don't think abortion should be made illegal. I'm against it, I think it's wrong, but I think it should remain legal... But controlled.

There are certain situations that must apply to you for you to qualify for an abortion. *Remembering best I can from GCSE religion). Most women in the UK say that it "will cause them mental harm". There is no evidence needed for this, which is why most choose this.

I think that an evaluation of the woman's situation should be done 1st. Finacial status, housing, mental health etc.
Only then should an abortion be given.

If they can't afford to raise the child themselves there is always adoption. This is one of the reasons why I feel so strongly against abortion... Infertile women who want a child to love and care for have so much trouble trying to adopt.. And a pregnant teenage girl can walk into a clinic and leave with their baby in a dish?

Two comments about this, because it jumped out at me--

1--It may not necessarily be the cost of a child that makes abortion the better choice. A poor woman may not have the resources to afford going through just the pregnancy. That's medical costs she has to pay, and time off work to deliver the child. Even assuming that all goes well, it is going to be costly to go through the full pregnancy.

2--I really didn't want to get into the adoption topic, but I once asked a man why he and his wife were doing IVF instead of adopting. His answer was that IVF was quicker and cheaper. He and his wife decided to go through an expensive and uncomfortable procedure because it was easier that adopting. Doesn't something strike you as fundamentally wrong about that?

Jayn, I'm assuming as, like most Mene members, you are American?
My point of view is UK... And we don't have to pay medical costs here, unless we choose to go for private health care. The National Health Service provides free health care in hospitals, as well as free prescriptions of medicines for those in a low income, etc.

Maternity leave is also paid for here (isn't it in the US? O_o), and their job is secure when they wish to return.

And IVF doesn't necessarily work for all women... It can be a lot of money to pay, even at the chance of it failing. Adoption is a difficult process too, I know that.

Kinda American. I live there now, but I'm a Canadian. Though that was the point I was coming from was with the American system, since I figured you were probably from there, like most Mene members ^^'. Pregnancy is a physically trying experience, though, and it's not something I would willingly endure at this point in my life, regardless of which country I was living in. Hell, PMS usually drives me crazy by the time it's over, and that doesn't last nearly as long.