...i would actually refuse to take this concern seriously given the fact that every time i walk into a barnes and noble the manga section has devoured another half an aisle of space and the anime is slowly overpowering the actual movies. Also the fact that there is always someone whos buying them while i'm there. I witness the market moving, so maybe the trendyness is wavering, or perhaps the core target audience isnt buying like they were last month but i doubt this is going to lead to some kind of market collapse.

I personally dont read ALOT of manga, i only actually own one myself (Flesh for the beast) but i do own some of those manga sized marvel comics "digests" that they have been putting out. I also dont watch alot of anime, i only own hellsing and cowboy bebop at the moment. I'm just trying to give hope to those who are upset by the possible collapse of the anime market so they dont cry themselves to sleep at night on their officially licensed character themed pillows.

The issue of downloading anime vs buying it is such a sticky one and everyone will always have different opinions. I mean.. we can see it here.

Personally, I used to download like a fiend. I have 2 external harddrives full of the stuff and spindles and spindles of burned DVDs and CDs. I was in school and not working and it was readily available. The funds I DID have were spent mostly on manga and saving up for buying at anine conventions. Does it balance out? Who knows. I certainly wasn't *only* downloading and not buying anything.

Honestly I think that if I hadn't been able to download so rampantly then, I wouldn't be buying anything at all now. Currently I still do download, but I buy as well. I've been buying the Hell Girl DVDs even though I have a downloaded fansub version burned onto a data DVD. I had downloaded and watched kaleido Star multiple times, but I still went out and bought the box-sets. Why? Because having access to fansubs on the internet helped introduce me to a lot of series that I wouldn't have given a second glance otherwise. I'm not going to buy a box-set of a complete unknown series. What if I hate it and now I'm out 40 or 50 bucks?

I guess I'm still on the fence about it. Sure it's stealing, but for a lot of people it's what keeps them buying when they can.

I am not really on the fence, but I am on both sides so it is a bit weird in my case. All my money goes to anime (which is alot, like estimated 5-7.5k worth in anime stuff) but I also still download illegally alot. Any suggestions on it, from people either on the fence or one sided?

Well that's what i meant by "on the fence" XD

Honestly I feel like I spend plenty to support the industry and so long as you're doing what you're capable of, you shouldn't be penalized if you download on the side.

ok, I just always worry about that, like what if one day they found me theory, but then yeah, lots of money. not sure what happened to the people who did that with music. Any idea. Yeah that isn't really on the fence in my mind as much as on both sides at once.

Originally Posted by Yarrian

I acnowledge I am stealing. However, my anime choice is odd and obscure. I like slice-of-life anime and magical girl. I acnowledge most of the shows I want will never get licensed, some of them don't even get fansubbed. However, you seem to have totally reversed the point of my post. I would like them to license less. I think at least a portion of the market is under the impression that they can licenses any old thing and it'll sell, which is the fault of the liensing companies. I mean, again, they icensed Pani Poni Dash. I know a lot of anime fans, and of them I know two others who enjoy that series. I can't understand why it was licensed at all.

Also, you are under the impression I'm withholding money. I actually spend all my money on anime, more or less. The problem is, I am a student and I live on a shoestring budget. I could not spend more money on anime, I would not be able to eat. That's why fansubs are so important to me. I don't have money to waste trying out a series. If it wasn't for fansubs I would never have learned enough about anime to even start buying, as it's hardly a cheap hobby to get into. All the money I have I spend on anime. Pani Poni Dash, I own all of in boxset form. I buy the Bleach DVDS. I have recently got into Naruto and am saving to buy the DVDs since I've seen enough to know I'll like it and it'll be worth my money, and they are available.

I buy when I have money and when I know something is worth the money. If I didn't download the only upshoot would be that I would buy less as I wouldn't know what was worth buying, miss out on the series that are great but never get licensed (and some that do) and drop out with my friends who are up to date with the latest releases, pushing me further out of the fandom and making me, again, less likely to buy new DVDs. So, actually, I'd probably spend less on anime without fansubs.

Thanks for clearing up part of that.

I will agree that the anime industry needs to up its games and offer like episodes 1 or whatever of new series so that people can see whether they like the series or not. I'm a college student aswell, and i understand how it is to live on a fixed budget, but i will never ever ever accept it as a reason to steal. Hell, my favorite car costs around 100k, and there's no way in hell that i can buy it, and that doesn't give me a legitimate reason to steal it. Downloading for a "preview" is one thing, but downloading because you're broke is not a legitimate or justified reason. period.

I like to preview full series though, but in the end, if it had a good start I end up buying it anyway. Yes justifying stealing is hard, and as for the car, do you borrow it though, or do you pay him for gas or something so you don't need one, like anime there is some sharing that goes on, but then some people consider that stealing, and i am talking full box set trading of anime.

Originally Posted by Kyoko Otonashi

Thanks for clearing up part of that.

I will agree that the anime industry needs to up its games and offer like episodes 1 or whatever of new series so that people can see whether they like the series or not. I'm a college student aswell, and i understand how it is to live on a fixed budget, but i will never ever ever accept it as a reason to steal. Hell, my favorite car costs around 100k, and there's no way in hell that i can buy it, and that doesn't give me a legitimate reason to steal it. Downloading for a "preview" is one thing, but downloading because you're broke is not a legitimate or justified reason. period.

You don't have to accept it, I'm still going to do it. I think you can only view it as steeling if I download specifically so I do not have to buy. If I was sat here thinking "Oh, I don't need to buy that anime or manga becasue I've downloaded it". But I don't. I don't buy everything I download, I watch some things that aren't worth my money, but again, I don't view it as stealing as if the downlaod weren't availably I would simply have not seen it, I wouldn't have gone out and bought the DVD. The anime I download that I don't intend to buy isn't stealing from anyone as if I didn't download it, the only upshoot will be I don't see it, which will mildly inconvenience me when my friends are talking about it. In a way, you could even argue I'm helping the japanese producers as the more fans a series has, the more they can demand to license it (I should clarify that it's not a justification I use myself, just something I've heard people say).

With your car analogy, it's like taking it for a test drive even though you know you won't buy it, how I look at it. Yes, it's not nice, but it's not like you've deprived someone of something becasue you wouldn't ahve bought the car anyway, you can't afford and you find out once behind the wheel that it's pretty but lacks substance so it's not worth your money so you won't push for it. You don't feel obliged to buy a car becsaue you took it for a test drive and I don't feel obliged to buy an anime just becasue I downloaded it.

Originally Posted by Yarrian

You don't have to accept it, I'm still going to do it. I think you can only view it as steeling if I download specifically so I do not have to buy. If I was sat here thinking "Oh, I don't need to buy that anime or manga becasue I've downloaded it". But I don't. I don't buy everything I download, I watch some things that aren't worth my money, but again, I don't view it as stealing as if the downlaod weren't availably I would simply have not seen it, I wouldn't have gone out and bought the DVD. The anime I download that I don't intend to buy isn't stealing from anyone as if I didn't download it, the only upshoot will be I don't see it, which will mildly inconvenience me when my friends are talking about it. In a way, you could even argue I'm helping the japanese producers as the more fans a series has, the more they can demand to license it (I should clarify that it's not a justification I use myself, just something I've heard people say).

With your car analogy, it's like taking it for a test drive even though you know you won't buy it, how I look at it. Yes, it's not nice, but it's not like you've deprived someone of something becasue you wouldn't ahve bought the car anyway, you can't afford and you find out once behind the wheel that it's pretty but lacks substance so it's not worth your money so you won't push for it. You don't feel obliged to buy a car becsaue you took it for a test drive and I don't feel obliged to buy an anime just becasue I downloaded it.

I agree whole heartidly. I think most don't download not for sake of because it is free as much as they wan t to see it, and that is a means to see it. it is as effective as me somehow appearing and handing someone a series as telling them to download it. Also stuff liek Code Gaess it was well known in the U.S. and people wanted it because they saw the downloaded version. And guess what, now it is licensed. And they are producing it soon too, it was a quick thing that happened, but it would not be possible without the constant idea that people download to see the new series. Also sadly to say if people told me to buy it then, like why don't you buy more anime, or all the stuff you are watching now, I would tell them, find me a plane ticket to japan and I would.

D: I know exactly what you're talking about; I read an article/journal about this very topic a while back on deviantArt.

I'm gulity of reading manga online, too, but unlike most who just read everything online, I actually go out and buy the books when they come out. The problem with me is I'm impatient; I just can't wait. But I want to actually own the series, so it doesn't matter if I've already read it 4895139045 times online, I'll still go out and buy it.

People think "oh, it's not such a big deal, everyone's been doing it forever!". Well, yea. That's why it dropped nearly 50%. Or more probably, by now.

I think everyone should actually co and purchase more anime/media instead of ripping it from somewhere.

...actually, I'm just sounding repetitive, because I think everyone here's pretty much said everything I was going to say, anyway. >.>;; But. Yea.

BUY MORE MANGA/ANIME. D:

Sooner or later, if this continues, there won't be any left.

I'm not too surprised since decent anime dvds run for thirty freakin dollars a pop and you're lucky if you find them for less than that *thus why box sets are a better investment. ><;* But Manga I can easily handle and prefer since not only can you bring it with you practically everywhere but you see the original creator's art. Now I love anime to pieces and almost have all the dvds of Fullmetal Alchemist and am well on my way of collecting all the Fullmetal Panic series but it is hella expensive. Especially when you're looking for a job and have other bills to pay for. Now if they lowered the prices of anime dvds I'm sure the downloading would decrease and anime sales would go back up but right now they're screwing themselves over by making one dvd release 3 times more than a manga novel. ><;

The box sets are nice, I general though I love a manga far more than I love anime because it is more intensive, only exception is music series like la corda de oro. But yeah, otherwise, and it is cheaper so I do own alot more manga than anime

Originally Posted by d2hiriyuu

...and it is cheaper so I do own alot more manga than anime.

Agreed. I own twenty anime DVDs and about 110 volumes of manga.

@Rianali - People seem to have this perception that there are masses of anime fans out there downlaoding exclusivley. I don't think that's true at all. Again, biased sample but I have been involved in two anime societies in my life so know a lot of anime fans and while most of them do download and watch fansubs, I can't think of one who won't also buy DVDs and manga. We tend to preview and watch things that aren't licensed yet in fansub and, no, I'm not claiming they all buy everything they watch by a long way, but they don't watch subs so that they don't have to buy.

I sometimes wonder if the anime companies haven't overestimated the budget of their fans. I mean, we have merchandise to buy too. I also own three art books, fourteen plushies and seventeen figures of various sizes and prices. Not to even start on the money I spend on cosplay and miscalaneous other anime things (notebooks, purses, jewelry, posters), things I can get reguarless of it a show has been licensed or not and as these things are generally for series I currently love, they do tend to take priority.

yeah, after about 100 I consider it a lot. That is just how I am, it is officially a collection of books that became a library for me. I forgot when I reached my first 100, but like gold on mene, after you are close to a even number, you want to get more, no matter what.

Originally Posted by Yarrian

@Rianali - People seem to have this perception that there are masses of anime fans out there downlaoding exclusivley.

The perception may be exagerated, but there are plently of people doing it. Quite a few people have the reasoning that since they only watch it once, why should they buy it? And since apparently, less than one third of the people that downloaded Haruhi bought the DVDs, given how popular the series is, I think that says something.

I even remember this guy that when informed that the DVDs had the Japanese track and usually a superior translation to the fansubs, he just said "Hey, thanks for the tip-off! Now I'll download DVD rips!"

I sometimes wonder if the anime companies haven't overestimated the budget of their fans. I mean, we have merchandise to buy too.

Well, I suppose they mostly assume that buying the anime is the fans top priority, with merchandise being the second. And, going back to Haruhi, they sometimes even include merchandise on the boxsets or special editions DVDs, so it's not like you can't mix both. I mean, the Special edition of the first DVD of Haruhi alone has a custom series artbox, a Haruhi~ism iron-on, a double-sided pencil board, a Haruhi Cosplay Ribbon, and the Hare Hare Yukai CD Soundtrack. All for 58.5$ if you get it at rightstuf. I'm not an expert on merchandise, but that sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Originally Posted by Rmarques

The perception may be exagerated, but there are plently of people doing it. Quite a few people have the reasoning that since they only watch it once, why should they buy it? And since apparently, less than one third of the people that downloaded Haruhi bought the DVDs, given how popular the series is, I think that says something.

I even remember this guy that when informed that the DVDs had the Japanese track and usually a superior translation to the fansubs, he just said "Hey, thanks for the tip-off! Now I'll download DVD rips!"

Well, I suppose they mostly assume that buying the anime is the fans top priority, with merchandise being the second. And, going back to Haruhi, they sometimes even include merchandise on the boxsets or special editions DVDs, so it's not like you can't mix both. I mean, the Special edition of the first DVD of Haruhi alone has a custom series artbox, a Haruhi~ism iron-on, a double-sided pencil board, a Haruhi Cosplay Ribbon, and the Hare Hare Yukai CD Soundtrack. All for 58.5$ if you get it at rightstuf. I'm not an expert on merchandise, but that sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

I haven't bought Haruhi yet. It's a money issue. It's on the to-buy list. I think 1/3 of people who downloaded buying a copy within a relativley short time of the release (the first DVD hasn't been out a year yet) is pretty amazing. I mean, to start with, not everyone who downlaoded watched it. I know I have a habit of downlaoding and meaning to watch but letting it pile up and not getting round to it. Then not everone who downloaded and watched will have liked it, or liked it enough to invest, well, if I were to order it now I would cost me £60 for the regular eddition or £120 for the limited edition. You have to admit that's quite a big outlay. I think 1/3 of the people who downloaded buying is a pretty amazing fraction. Now, if nobody had subbed it, nobody had downaloded, there wasn't a fanbase, nobody recced it becasue nobody had seen it to rec, how many DVDs do you suppose they would have sold then?

As I've said, for me merchandise is more important as it's often more relevant to the things I'm watching right now, I get more pleasuer out of it and it's less likely to be something I can pick up easily later. The Haruhi specials are quite nice, but the amount and quality of the additions doesn't match up to the price hike (I'm paying the price of another DVD for a CD single, a sticker, a bit of ribbon and a pencil board? I estimate that merchandise to be worth about £7 at the most if purchesed alone, though the box is very pertty. I'm normally willing to pay up to £5 extra for a pretty box to keep my set in, but £15 is too much). Also, the down-side of that is it's not the merchandise I want. I own Haruhi merchandise. I own figuremates and a Magical-Maid-Mikuru figurine, which I class as far more worth my money then the rubbish in the limited edition DVDs.

I understand about that. even with 1/3rd it is hard to deal with the many people who fail to see the fan based reasoning that has been created from downloading. I am one of those people who have somehow managed to own both DVDs and downloaded GB of that I have not watched at all. i don't find it that odd actually, and I also prefer download rather than waking up to watch Eureka7 or something.

Originally Posted by Yarrian

Now, if nobody had subbed it, nobody had downaloded, there wasn't a fanbase, nobody recced it becasue nobody had seen it to rec, how many DVDs do you suppose they would have sold then?

Well, for starters, there's people that download/buy and watch the RAWs, so there would be a few people watching it, and maybe reccing it. And then again, there's cases like Dragon Ball, that managed to become popular worldwide without that much of an internet following beforehand, if any (correct me if I'm wrong).

Originally Posted by Rmarques

Well, for starters, there's people that download/buy and watch the RAWs, so there would be a few people watching it, and maybe reccing it. And then again, there's cases like Dragon Ball, that managed to become popular worldwide without that much of an internet following beforehand, if any (correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't know much about Dragonball and it's popularity but there's always an exception. While people would watch and rec raws, I know for a fact that I would have never got into anime without fansubs, and I think many people are the same. There woudln't be the market or the fanbase there without fansubs.

Originally Posted by Yarrian

I don't know much about Dragonball and it's popularity but there's always an exception. While people would watch and rec raws, I know for a fact that I would have never got into anime without fansubs, and I think many people are the same. There woudln't be the market or the fanbase there without fansubs.

Well, I know that. However, today most anime and manga creators have an estabilished fanbase, so, a new manga by CLAMP only needs to be announced as a new project by the creators of, say, Card Captor Sakura, and it is already garateed to have people buying it.

Granted, I have no issue what-so-ever with watching fansubs of shows that aren't licensed yet, or at least not available on a language you're familiar with. However, when people download something that is licensed, and have little no intention of buying it wether they like it or not... That's when I start having an issue.

I'll watch fansubbed anime online before its licensed, but I would need to wait until its licensed in the US before I can buy it. There are already a lot of anime that I was introduced to online, watched, then waited for it to be available a la box set here that I have bought.

It is disappointing that the anime industry is suffering because of the large quantities of illegal downloading that goes on by people who never want to buy the series. There's also the problem with bootleg DVDs, there are a lot of sites I found awhile ago that boasted really cheap prices for box sets. I didn't realize when I had ordered that I was buying from a Hong Kong bootlegger who just took the fansubs and put them onto DVD. Quality was horrible and it was worse than downloading the series and never buying because I was supporting someone who was profiting from the downloads.

Now I only buy from the translator's sites or a place like Best Buy. I'm just hoping that all the shows I enjoyed these past few seasons get picked up, so far only Shugo Chara! is out and only in manga format.

Originally Posted by Rmarques

Well, I know that. However, today most anime and manga creators have an estabilished fanbase, so, a new manga by CLAMP only needs to be announced as a new project by the creators of, say, Card Captor Sakura, and it is already garateed to have people buying it.

Granted, I have no issue what-so-ever with watching fansubs of shows that aren't licensed yet, or at least not available on a language you're familiar with. However, when people download something that is licensed, and have little no intention of buying it wether they like it or not... That's when I start having an issue.

I'd agree with that. I use fansubs mainly to keep up to date with the anime relases in Japan, if I want to see something that's out in the UK licensed, I'll save up and buy like I'm doing with Naruto at the moment.

This is something close to home for me. I work with anime conventions and have a lot of friends who are voice actors. It's funny how many fans they have that think they are loaded because they're on TV. Their wallets take a healthy hit from downloading. Companies just can't afford to pay them what they're worth anymore. Geneon is dead, and another company is close to it now. It's really sad. Most people think it's okay under certain circumstances to download, but it never really is. Unlicensed shows will stay unlicensed if the download rate is high on them as companies know that people will not buy what they've already seen. It's happened to many times to be coincidence. There's some panels on fansubbing on youtube by Greg Ayres that really should get circulated more methinks. He covers it all and lets you know what happens to the industry when you download.

Originally Posted by Nissa

There's some panels on fansubbing on youtube by Greg Ayres that really should get circulated more methinks. He covers it all and lets you know what happens to the industry when you download.

Here you go.

Originally Posted by Rmarques

Here you go.

Nice, it's even the one from our convention. :lol: