Originally Posted by Nissa

Nice, it's even the one from our convention. :lol:

Well, it is part one, so it only makes sense that it's the first one to be put up. :P

Originally Posted by Nissa

This is something close to home for me. I work with anime conventions and have a lot of friends who are voice actors. It's funny how many fans they have that think they are loaded because they're on TV. Their wallets take a healthy hit from downloading. Companies just can't afford to pay them what they're worth anymore. Geneon is dead, and another company is close to it now. It's really sad. Most people think it's okay under certain circumstances to download, but it never really is. Unlicensed shows will stay unlicensed if the download rate is high on them as companies know that people will not buy what they've already seen. It's happened to many times to be coincidence. There's some panels on fansubbing on youtube by Greg Ayres that really should get circulated more methinks. He covers it all and lets you know what happens to the industry when you download.

Again, an argument that only stands if we accept the premis that by downlaoding I am then not going out and buying anime. This is a false statement. As stated earlier, I spend as much monay as I can on anime and manga, if I don't doanload fansubs this will not increase. In fact, as stated early, it will probably drop of as I won't know what to buy, and I can't afford the outlay on a series I don't know I'll like. Just downloading and never buying is bad, but I don't see how downloading is hurting as long as I also buy as much as I would if I didn't download. And, fyi, I'm one of the people who buys things they've already got a fansubbed copy of. I'm not the only one like this. Tell me how my downloading unlicensed shows to keep up with the fandom and buying shows I enjoy within my budget when they are availabelt on DVD is causing the industry to collapse, please?

I do think, to an extent, some downloading hurts the industry. However, I refuse to pin all the industry's problems on downloading, I think it's pointless scapegoating. I think, in fact, without downloads there would be next to no fanbase and those companies would not be making any money.

Originally Posted by Yarrian

Again, an argument that only stands if we accept the premis that by downlaoding I am then not going out and buying anime. This is a false statement. As stated earlier, I spend as much monay as I can on anime and manga, if I don't doanload fansubs this will not increase. In fact, as stated early, it will probably drop of as I won't know what to buy, and I can't afford the outlay on a series I don't know I'll like. Just downloading and never buying is bad, but I don't see how downloading is hurting as long as I also buy as much as I would if I didn't download. And, fyi, I'm one of the people who buys things they've already got a fansubbed copy of. I'm not the only one like this. Tell me how my downloading unlicensed shows to keep up with the fandom and buying shows I enjoy within my budget when they are availabelt on DVD is causing the industry to collapse, please?

I do think, to an extent, some downloading hurts the industry. However, I refuse to pin all the industry's problems on downloading, I think it's pointless scapegoating. I think, in fact, without downloads there would be next to no fanbase and those companies would not be making any money.

I'm not attacking, I download Naruto and justify it the same way you just stated. I started watching it long long ago and don't want to wait for the US to get to where I'm at. I consider it a selfish act on my part, but I do it anyways. I believe it was Hare Guu that was put to me as an example. The anime was very popular and there were subs of it all over the place. When it was licensed and put out to purchase no one bought it. It had the worst sales out of everything released around it, even though it had gotten the most praise and best reviews. And the fanbase would be there even without the downloading. It was the fanbase and nothing else that started this stuff in America. There was a need and that need got fulfilled. Now we live to enjoy the fruits of the 80's anime fans' labor. It's nice that you're a buyer and not a leacher, but for every one of us who buys what they watch, there are 10 leachers out there who will use our downloads to seed, and never put anything back. That is how it hurts the industry.

Originally Posted by Nissa

I'm not attacking, I download Naruto and justify it the same way you just stated. I started watching it long long ago and don't want to wait for the US to get to where I'm at. I consider it a selfish act on my part, but I do it anyways. I believe it was Hare Guu that was put to me as an example. The anime was very popular and there were subs of it all over the place. When it was licensed and put out to purchase no one bought it. It had the worst sales out of everything released around it, even though it had gotten the most praise and best reviews. And the fanbase would be there even without the downloading. It was the fanbase and nothing else that started this stuff in America. There was a need and that need got fulfilled. Now we live to enjoy the fruits of the 80's anime fans' labor. It's nice that you're a buyer and not a leacher, but for every one of us who buys what they watch, there are 10 leachers out there who will use our downloads to seed, and never put anything back. That is how it hurts the industry.

Indeed, I'm just of the general opinion that people overestimate the problem and maybe the anime companies have stretched themsleves too far and are turning to fansubs to blame. I remain unconvinced that is fansubs suddenly stopped tomorow the people who hoard subs would suddenly begin to spend large quantities of money on anime. Of course, sales would go up as some people to avoid buying and as well some would spend beyond their means but I think it's more likely that a lot of people would simply drop out.

And I think my thing with fandom is from my own experience of coming into anime. I discovered anime about 5/6 years ago by seeing it on TV, and even then the first time I walked into a specialist shop and saw the shelves and shelves of DVDs and manga, I didn't know where to even start, and it's only gotten worse. I did buy a couple of shows to start out, thing I was familiar with or so consistently recomended, but if I hadn't had access to fansubs and been able to tailor my buying I would have probably drifted for a while, bought a few things I kinda liked, maybe a few duff ones, not learned my own anime taste (even with fansubs it took me a couple of years to find my favourite genres and settle, I couldn't have done that if I had to purchas everything I watch) then drifted out again into a more accessable fandom. I get that things might be different these days but anime isn't a small fandom, there are so many shows and so many opinions that for new people it can be incredibly hard to get into and know where to spend your money.

It bothers me when people download and keep anything downloadable. Music, anime, everything. If I download things, which I do, I still go and buy the actual CD and the DVD whenever I can. I hate feeling like I've ripped off the creators or artists of something I love, it's just not fair to do that to someone's hard work. Bootlegs are just as bad as downloading also.

Originally Posted by Unnie

It bothers me when people download and keep anything downloadable. Music, anime, everything. If I download things, which I do, I still go and buy the actual CD and the DVD whenever I can. I hate feeling like I've ripped off the creators or artists of something I love, it's just not fair to do that to someone's hard work. Bootlegs are just as bad as downloading also.

As I've stated before, not everyone in the U.S even has computers, let alone teh internet. And then even less of those people are anime fans. I know plenty of anime fans without computers.

But the point is, musicians and Tokyopop and such make millions a year. If they lose a couple of mil off their profits, it doesn't really matter. So some fatcats can wear 10000$ Armani suits while children starve in places like Russian and Africa? I'm not buying. At least not new.

And as I've stated before, a lot of the fansubbed anime has no mainstream-anime fan appeal. A lot more people have watched Naruto than, say, DearS. Because most anime fans parents won't buy DearS or let them watch it, and a lot of networks won't show it.

Manga intended to appeal to housewives in Japan probably won't be brought over here, because most American housewives don't read manga. 'Nuff said.

As for watching already licensed anime, have you seen Tokyo Mew Mew? Or rather, the abomination known as Mew Mew Power? I'm all for Mew Mew Power existing. For the 5-13 year olds watching FoxBox or whatever has it know. But people should be able to locate and enjoy a decent fandub/sub if they want to.

That said, I have a 4gb hardrive in this comp of mine. I'm not guilty of downloading anime. Less people than you'd think are. And what about fans in places like Brazil and Russia? I don't think alot of anime and manga shows up there, from what my foreign friendies tell me.

Plus it's plain fucking expensive. It costs 10$ for a manga volume at B&N, no one in Japan is paying that. I'm not going to pay that. I don't have the money. So I guess only rich people get to enjoy anime and manga.

That's the way it should be. Only the rich get to indulge in non-mainstream interests. I guess I'll go watch PBS and drink some tapwater.

Yeah I used to watch fansubs of unlicensed anime then bought the dvd of the dub when it made it to America but eventually I realized sitting in front of my computer to watch things is stupid.

This is sort of similar but I love how there are videos on youtube that are trying to start a coalition to get Family Guy back on youtube even thought people aren't intitled to their shows like its a neccessity to life.

@Sweet Lemon Effect
Ok here is many thing wrong with what you just said here:

"Plus it's plain fucking expensive. It costs 10$ for a manga volume at B&N, no one in Japan is paying that. I'm not going to pay that. I don't have the money. So I guess only rich people get to enjoy anime and manga."

1) America is not Japan. Manga is more of a commodity outside of Japan therefore of course your going to have to pay alittle more than what you would in Japan where manga is accessible as easily as water is out of a water fountain.

2) Oh noez. 8-10 dollars? Oh poor you. Looks like someone dosen't know about alitte thing called "coupons." I suggest you go to Border's and get their free rewards card which gives you coupons every week via email. Plus a variety of times they have a buy 3 get 1 free deal.

3) Here is another theory I have. If you can't afford it then I guess your doomed and have to wait your pretty little self until you can afford it.

Plus little missy I'm far from rich. I'm far from it. I've been able to afford manga since I was 15 where I had very little spending money. I suggest you just try and budget your money better.

And holy crap I just remembered. Manga and anime was more expensive than it once was right now. So you be thankful we live in a world were manga is 10 dollars a volume. You go into Border's or B and B and you hug those 10 dollar a volume shelves of manga. Hug them and never let go. :evil:

Not to mention that in Japan anime is even more expensive than in the US. 60 dollars for a DVD that may have only 2 episodes is no joke.

Originally Posted by Rmarques

Not to mention that in Japan anime is even more expensive than in the US. 60 dollars for a DVD that may have only 2 episodes is no joke.

Is it really?
Hm. I thought it would be cheaper.

Originally Posted by Takuto

Is it really?
Hm. I thought it would be cheaper.

Japan is a really expensive country. Tokyo didn't get the title the most expensive city in the world for nothing. A simple trip to yesasia.com can show that.

Originally Posted by AzureWolf

@Sweet Lemon Effect
Ok here is many thing wrong with what you just said here:

"Plus it's plain fucking expensive. It costs 10$ for a manga volume at B&N, no one in Japan is paying that. I'm not going to pay that. I don't have the money. So I guess only rich people get to enjoy anime and manga."

1) America is not Japan. Manga is more of a commodity outside of Japan therefore of course your going to have to pay alittle more than what you would in Japan where manga is accessible as easily as water is out of a water fountain.

2) Oh noez. 8-10 dollars? Oh poor you. Looks like someone dosen't know about alitte thing called "coupons." I suggest you go to Border's and get their free rewards card which gives you coupons every week via email. Plus a variety of times they have a buy 3 get 1 free deal.

3) Here is another theory I have. If you can't afford it then I guess your doomed and have to wait your pretty little self until you can afford it.

Plus little missy I'm far from rich. I'm far from it. I've been able to afford manga since I was 15 where I had very little spending money. I suggest you just try and budget your money better.

And holy crap I just remembered. Manga and anime was more expensive than it once was right now. So you be thankful we live in a world were manga is 10 dollars a volume. You go into Border's or B and B and you hug those 10 dollar a volume shelves of manga. Hug them and never let go. :evil:

Oooo he can count to 3!~ Let's see if we can too!

1. We're talking about the manga/anime business suffering? It's not common around here? Wonder why.

Because your average American will NOT pay $10 for a volume of manga. 'Nuff said. I think that just MIGHT by why so many people are downloading/scanlating it. Hm? Any thoughts here peeps?

2. Borders. Coupons via E-mail. First of all, no Borders 'round these parts. 2nd of all, not everyone HAS Email. Didn't I mention that before?

3. Oh wait I'm not doomed. I can download it and watch/read it. ^^

As for "budgeting" my money, I have no money, never had, and won't for quite a while, so don't make assumptions.

Also, American manga/anime will fail because we can order it from Japan. I know an excellent little site where I used to get manga volumes for about 200-300 yen.

Plus as I said before, the only anime and manga that will make lots money is very mainstream ones, and ones that sell to kids, and as a result posters, toys, cards and shirts.

Naruto and Pokemon may be very nice, but I like to expand my tastes a little.

Originally Posted by Sweet Lemon Effect

Naruto and Pokemon may be very nice, but I like to expand my tastes a little.

You speak as if that's all the US has.

@Sweet Lemon Effect
Hey as long as people get their manga/anime fix legally its all good where they get it from.

Also they give out the coupons along with the printout of the receipte so it wouldn't matter if you have email or not.

And speaking of making assumptions...you assume that I know how to speak Japanese. Well ordering it from Japan would be hunkydory with myself as various manga won't make it to America that I would like to read....but one problem.....I don't speak or read Japanese.

Originally Posted by AzureWolf

Also they give out the coupons along with the printout of the receipte so it wouldn't matter if you have email or not.

And speaking of making assumptions...you assume that I know how to speak Japanese. Well ordering it from Japan would be hunkydory with myself as various manga won't make it to America that I would like to read....but one problem.....I don't speak or read Japanese.

Buy the japanese volume, download the scans. You're supporting the original creators by buying their books but you can still enjoy it as you're reading the scans. If you have some kind of problem with the anime industry in America it's a good idea, of if you want to support the creators of a book even if it doesn't get licensed.

And, re the coupon thing, again, she's have to have access to a Borders and you're being culture specific becasue I'm in the uk and they don't. One volume of manga costs me about 10% of my maximum total weekly living expenses. I live close to the limit of that anyway and am still trying to save for things like DVDs and a laptop. This is someone who lives alone so the alternative is really, in a literal sense, not eating (or only eating rice) if I overspend my too much). i do buy manga, I'm careful and make room in my budget and wait for offers, but I simply can not afford all the manga I want. To get to where I'd like to be in terms of licensed manga right now would take several hundred pounds, at least. And that's presuming I could find the books.

@Rmarques - You speak as though everyone lives in the US. I'm in England. Unless you have access to sky of cable, there's nothing. If you do, you can maybe catch Yu Gi Oh (butchered version). There's one chanel that seems to play Wolf's rain, FMA and Bleach on loop last time I was home to check it out, again all in dub. The Sci-fi channel used, in my youth, to show anime at 3am, but they showed Eva and Nadesico and one other show I can't remember the name of only. It's not a massive selection unless you're vastly rich and capable of buying. I maintain, done completely legaly buying local DVDs and manga, anime is a prohibitivley expensive hobby for most people. I certainly couldn't afford it. I think it's better for the anime companies that I stay in my hobby and pay when money I can spare for legal releases then fall out of the hobby completely and not let them have any of my money.

Originally Posted by Yarrian

@Rmarques - You speak as though everyone lives in the US.

Well, I was talking under the assumption that Sweet Lemon Effect lives in the US, since that was directed at her, not everyone.

my friend the music on my mp3 player is the same. i'm ripping of artis.
but thats more cos i don't wanne buy a hole cd for like 2 songs i wan't

i don't like anime and i barly watch it. the stories are far from what happend in the manga. so i mostly just read.
if want an anime i'll buy a box and a box only. cos i hate buing a dvd and not having the hole serie.

point two. i would love the buy some of the anime a downloaded. but its so onheard of these day's that i can't even buy it even i wanted it.
dos any body now blue seed? i do and i love it. sure i'll buy it, wil you pleas just sell it to me.

and a part from that i do't mind if anyone downloads an anime.
if its just to see if you like it or not and then buy the dvd. mind you.

i saw some eps of hell girl that way. i got me the manga and i'm wating for season one to be on a boxset.
i like it.

there a big diffrents in why everone downloads.
for me its just to see if i like it or not and then buy there real one tho seport the makers of the manga/anime
some are just doing cos the don't wanne pay for it.
one more reason take naruto. cos there a head a loth and the'll but it when it comes out.
mind you i know that some stil won't pay for it but thats live i guss.

as for manga.. ug i hate reading them on my pc. i wil and have them in my hands, i don;tcare if you can see to chapter 12 of xxxholic on inter net.

and one more thing.
even if you buy an manga and lend it to a friend. even if you buy the hole serie and let your frend read it cos of this or that its the same as internet.
one has bot a set of his one and is now up loading it for al his friends and more to watch it on there pc.

so if your reading something from a friend. go buy your own one. i know lots of peaple how read so many manga's but don't own a singel one. i find it weerd. if you like it that much then why not buy it.
i own more then 65 manga serie as it is. some are stil going and its an ever growing colection.

but i must have read over 90 serie's
my and my boyfriend are planing to liver to getehre so we have a rule of not buing the same manga's

take my word for it. if we spit up/ i'm buing the serie he has i like.

Originally Posted by Wickedpan-chan

dos any body now blue seed? i do and i love it. sure i'll buy it, wil you pleas just sell it to me.

Order from here. It's the whole show plus the ova sequel for 45$, pretty good deal.

Originally Posted by Rmarques

Order from here. It's the whole show plus the ova sequel for 45$, pretty good deal.

thank you thanky you i love you i love you i love.
need to stalk my best friend for his craditcardt
i love you thank you BLUE SEED I CAN SEE THE END.

edit i cald him, and he wil get it for me i just need to pay him back.
i hate not having my own cradit card.
afthere 8 dame years i finely get to see it. to bad the did not have blue seed to o wel 'm in haven
i'm so happy
cuddels and kisses you
you'r my god

Originally Posted by Wickedpan-chan

thank you thanky you i love you i love you i love.
need to stalk my best friend for his craditcardt
i love you thank you BLUE SEED I CAN SEE THE END

You can just send them a money order, unless you don't live in the US, then you need to one.

Originally Posted by Rmarques

You can just send them a money order, unless you don't live in the US, then you need to one.

i'm in holland so its a pain to begin with. like i said my friend a has one so i'll just do it like that.
its $10 just for shipment :'( o wel i have bin wanting it for so lang that i barly care. i do but its so little that i'll buy it anyway.\but thank you so much
it has japenees and english sups all the things i want
i'm gonna cry.
my boy friend is looking a bit corney at me but i don't care. i'm so happy

and there go's my money for this month..the mony i have to spend hobbies/

to get back on topic. i'll tell you hpw i shop for manga.
i work in a comic shope. where we sell manga. one of the main reason i buy about 3 to 6 per week.
when a new title comes in i read the back. if i'm nos sure i right down the name of the book, the righter and suplyer.
at night afthere work. i go info hunting on the net
if theres an animay i watch ep one and two
if i like i'll get the books i want. if i like the first 2 to 3 volums i keep the serie.
so far this had worked for me i never had serie i did no t like anymore have way trough reading it.
there are a bit of illegal way's i get the info i want.
but then again if i like it i don't mind buing it.
if i don't like won't care if that serie flops. i do care for the auter artist and publisher just not for that serie.

really, so many people do not understand just how badly the anime industry is suffering. Japanese anime studios are starting to admit they've had to cut their budgets because they're losing money again.

in the early 90's the bulk of the Japanese anime industry nearly went under, it was the North American anime industry that saved them, buying more and more licenses from them each year. with the North American industry suffering as well what's to keep the Japanese anime industry afloat, especially since they've come to depend on foreign companies buying licenses from them.

Originally Posted by Kyuuki

really, so many people do not understand just how badly the anime industry is suffering. Japanese anime studios are starting to admit they've had to cut their budgets because they're losing money again.

in the early 90's the bulk of the Japanese anime industry nearly went under, it was the North American anime industry that saved them, buying more and more licenses from them each year. with the North American industry suffering as well what's to keep the Japanese anime industry afloat, especially since they've come to depend on foreign companies buying licenses from them.

where complaining about the price no
it wil be hell then.
then will hae to do with the manga's and not the anime's

disney, hollywood, bollywood and movie renters
there al suffer
and dont forget even the video's sufferd until they where locked.

i have even heard tings like
why the would i rent it if i can download it in like 10 mins
i don't even have to go out and i don't have to worry its not in.

as for anime
i wanne see it LIKE NOW be fore its even in the states. cos thats where i am now.

anime prices are lower in North America than they've ever been. trust me, I remember when one had to pay $40 for one VHS tape that if you were lucky had more than 2 eps on it. I can find in stores and online anime for under $20 a volume, I've even found non-bootleg boxsets for as low as $21 (like Pretear and the set for the Lodoss War TV series shortly before it went out of print).

according to articles out there DVD sales in general are down 15%. anime DVD sales are down about TWICE that and the fandom is MUCH bigger than in 2005 when anime sales hit their peak in North America. sales are now under 50% of what they were then. it's a trend that has caused many long time anime fans to take a staunch anti-fansub stance.

I'm not of that group, but I am among those that push for the responcible use of fansubs. fansubs were meant to build a fanbase ready to buy legit releases or at least use legit sources. fansubs were never meant to be a free alternative. it's one thing to use fansubs to check out an unlicensed title then buy it or rent it when it does get licensed, it's another thing completely to only use fansubs/DVD rips illegally.

the problem lies in the "I want it and I want it now" mentality of these days and the fact that unlike in the past there's no push from most of the fansubbers urging those who watch their fansubs to buy legit when available and support the industry.

back when I was buying VHS fansubs I remember reading the pages for the fansubbers and their distributors and seeing both mention fansubs are technically illegal, allowed only because they're being used to help the industry, and urging the purchase of legit releases once they become available. today there's a mass pushing people to use fansubs instead of legit releases, who think free anime is a gods given right, who only care about their anime fix they way a druggie cares about their drug fix, ignoring the harm it does.

when I see what's happened to a chunk of the anime fandom out there it sometimes makes me sick. I use to remember people posting on forums and mailinglists regularly bragging about their recent legit acquisitions and the size of their legally obtained anime collections. now I regularly see people bragging about how many gigs of anime they have on their computer.

Ok you know what I sort of lost track of the whole conversation. :shock:

In short if you really like something you should pay for it. Anime and manga are not essential to sustaining life. If one can't afford it then one shouldn't steal to get it as its not getting you anything extra besides the lable of being a tightass.

Good night and good luck. :P