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+lieforrenn
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02-15-2008, 04:31 AM
I was wondering about this already for a while now... After the Saw and Death Note, I was wondering, would riteous death be a worthy sin?
Sure the people that were killed were evil. Are evil. But that doesn't mean that what you did by killing them was good. They could turn good, but you ended their lives by killing them, so how does righteous death work out like that?
I know that psychopaths tend to do things like that, but is it good for them? Is the sin actually worth committing at all? Personally, I'd be too chicken to even TRY to kill someone since it isn't in my character, but from the point of someone lusting the death of a villain maybe not.
Well, I don't know so I'm asking you guys~ What do you think about "righteous death"? Is it worth committing? Is it evil? How do you single the bad eggs from the good ones?
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Krystyne
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02-15-2008, 05:13 AM
Like you pointed out, there's ALWAYS the chance that a 'bad guy' will reform, and so they should be given that chance. (I support the death penalty, but mostly in the cases of those who have been proven guilty beyond a doubt of heinous crimes)
As far as the plot of "Death Note" is concerned, no one person should have the privilege or the right to take death of others into his or her hands. 'Kira' proves this quite well, though I don't believe he ever started with pure intentions...rather, the power took over him and ruled him. Can't remember who said it, but someone once said "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"; there's no telling what any human being would do were they in Kira's position of power, or one similar.
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+lieforrenn
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02-15-2008, 05:14 AM
yeah...but in Death Note, Kira began to kill innocent people so they would not discover his true identity. His beginning intentions were righteous I guess, but later, a blood bath. :/
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Krystyne
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02-15-2008, 05:26 AM
Exactly...except, I'm still not sure why he began the whole thing in the first place. What has he to gain from evil people dying?
Anyway, I don't think a single person should take that kind of power in their and only their hands. We see what happened with Kira (even though he's not real, he's rather realistic) and...honestly, I believe that taking a human's life, without your being in the proper position (defending your own life, for example) is a sin, and not a worthy one. I don't see how it ever could be. You see what happens with Kira, and his being hunted down and turning to killing innocent people to cover his tracks. Any good you might have done...is that worth the death of those people? Of people who also believe they're doing the right thing by trying to stop you from killing people that, for all you know, are innocent and falsely accused?
It's an icky, sticky trap. >.<
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+lieforrenn
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02-15-2008, 05:28 AM
Um...well...not really.
Because both sides committed sin. The righteous murderer did homicide. The victim obviously did numerous bad things, so the odds are even. :/ And um...both sides would not be innocent in my view, but I'm not so sure if I'm right, so I'm asking you guys. xD
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Apathy
Dead Account Holder
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02-15-2008, 05:31 AM
Hmmm, the way I see it, he wants to rule over a new world, where everyone is too afraid of Kira to do wrong. Surely, many would die, but in his eyes, he's forging a utopia.
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+lieforrenn
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02-15-2008, 05:36 AM
Mhm, and he kills 'innocent' people in order to achieve his utopia that is free of 'bad' people. I kind of don't understand Kira sometimes. This is why I side with the police task force. D:
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Krystyne
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02-15-2008, 05:41 AM
Quote:
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Originally Posted by +lieforrenn
Um...well...not really.
Because both sides committed sin. The righteous murderer did homicide. The victim obviously did numerous bad things, so the odds are even. :/ And um...both sides would not be innocent in my view, but I'm not so sure if I'm right, so I'm asking you guys. xD
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Buuuuuuut, like you said, if you kill the person, with or without knowing for sure that they hurt someone else, you're no better than they are. You're both murderers, and...ARGH, I'm too tired for this.
Okay...
Killing = BAD
Killing random people = BAD
Killing someone because they killed someone (when their crime is proved beyond a doubt, they show no remorse, etc. and doing so by law, with all its usual restrictions and requirements) = ambiguous; you're preventing them from doing so again, but I can't bring myself to say it's 'good'
Killing someone even though you don't know the full situation = BAD, because, well, you don't know the whole story, you don't know if they were wrongly accused, etc. etc.
Basically, no one person should be judge and jury. Yes, I know the judge and jury can make mistakes, but those are 13 different points of view working to see all sides of the case and see who's guilty, who isn't, and what happened.
One person can't objectively do the jobs of 13 people, and that's in just one case. Think of all the people he killed, and how many different points of view those required or would have required.
I'm not sure whether I'm making myself clear, because I'm really good at confusing myself, BUT. No. Two wrongs do NOT make a right; killing people because they hurt or killed people, and doing so with no restrain whatsoever, does not make anything right.
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+lieforrenn
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02-15-2008, 05:45 AM
Yeah. Killing is bad in general. I'm sorry for missing your point so much, I get confused easily. I'm so sorry. ;__;
so basically both sides are bad? o-o;
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Krystyne
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02-15-2008, 05:51 AM
No, no, no, I confuse people very easily, especially when I'm tired. Like know. .-.;;; And I also can't understand people well, either. >>;;;;
Exactly. I mean, I understand capital punishment in the cases of overwhelming evidence, and with a judge and jury deciding that yes, that person did it. When one person attempts to be judge and jury, though, there is ALWAYS something they're going to miss or misunderstand.
And with that, I bid you a buenas noches. <3 Happy Valentine's Day. XD
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+lieforrenn
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02-15-2008, 05:53 AM
er...happy valentines day! ^ ^ ( that was random. o-o )
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Apathy
Dead Account Holder
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02-15-2008, 06:15 AM
I'm pretty sure everyone is torn between Light and L in this <3
L's just so cuuute :3
Moral dilemma takes second seat to what happened when they were chained together <3
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+lieforrenn
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02-15-2008, 06:21 AM
light kinda scared me in the Death Note movie. The movie made L look AWESOME. but Light was kind of....wow....psychopath. o-o
he was happy in a real twisted way. he seemed more sane in the anime/manga. D:
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Caroline
stay gold
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02-15-2008, 07:27 AM
I do not believe anyone is pure evil, but some have a universal concept of evil so deeply ingrained in them that they are basically beyond reforming. I don't think psychopathic serial killers can be helped. They feel no remorse or guilt for the murders they have committed, so why would they change their ways? If killing a ruthless murderer is the only way to save innocent lives, maybe it is worth it. This is a hard topic for me to debate because I'm a bit torn between my opinion that no one should play God and the fact that some people just don't change.
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+lieforrenn
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02-15-2008, 03:43 PM
so just because they don't change it's okay to kill them?
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ScarletStratholme
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02-26-2008, 12:55 AM
I disagree with killing innocent people and of judging them just based on what the media because the media is often wrong. I also don't think people should be the ones judging people...because we aren't very merciful. o.O'
But...I do somewhat agree with justice not really working. I just wouldn't think death's the best way, and also there would need to be some completely correct way to see the truth before deciding what to do with someone.
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kimu
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02-26-2008, 10:46 AM
Hmm well...I think of it like they are both normal people. One just did more sins than the other, and the other did too many good things. The one who did too many good things doesn't want the one with many sins to keep doing those sins, and the person who does so many sins thinks that if he turns back now, into a normal person, it will be already too late for him. The person who does too many good things, or just wants things for the better, wants the person who does too many sins to be free of his sins. For that person believes sins weigh you down. So for the sake of that sinfull person, the toogood person uses their dark side to free them for what they think is their pain. Maybe the sinfull person if enjoying all of this, and maybe the only way out for them is death, and they were just waiting for the goodygoody to kill them.
The person who does too many good things now lives with thinking "I killed a person..." after he kills the sinfull one. So, it is a sin. But a different kind of sin. One that a good person always have to live with. Not the kind that a bad person treasures.
I believe also that you can't tell which are the bad or good eggs, you can't place judgement on who is good and bad, even if they did so many bad things or good things, because they might change, also most people say a killer is always a killer, or they want to change or are discouraged by that or...I'm not saying though that killers should be pampered and all, just...I probably can't explain this one ^^' Well, the gist of what I mean is a good person could have done bad things too, so you really can't place judgement, at least, the one line of thought kind of judgement.
And...murders are just normal people like you and me. Anyone can be a murderer. Or so I believe.
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H_e_a_r_t
(。⌒∇⌒)&...
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02-27-2008, 03:09 AM
Weeellll, if the person is holding a poison and planning to kill a big population, yeah, it's worth it to kill the person. I know it's not in my place to judge that person's death, but seriously, if you see some idiot planning to kill a city, would you kill him if that was the only way to stop him?
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joih
Dead Account Holder
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02-27-2008, 03:48 AM
I just like to raise three points for the sake of discussion.
Killing others is not bad. People only assign it as bad
Is the act of killing bad? Or is it just assigned by people? I mean, we humans, in primitive era, tend to kill each other for survival purposes. It is only now in established culture that we set rules not to kill each other so as to preserve order in the community. Assigning that killing is bad is done by shaping ideological institutions.
Killing for good reasons
Superheroes who kills "evil" monsters are just like killing "evil" humans (since monsters are fictional characters). Yet superheroes has a good perception. And killing bad humans will tend to have a good effect on society. Even the police kills when the criminal tries to get away.
No human is completely bad
Humans act rationally. They weigh their decisions. They have deep hatred or financial problems that's why they do "evil" things. So no one can go around killing people who they think are "evil" for the community's sake.
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Violet Lace
⊙ω⊙
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02-27-2008, 02:30 PM
You could say that it's bad to kill them because they have the chance of reforming, but that's assuming a lot. There's no proof that they will reform after all and if they don't, they may go on harming innocent people. So in the end, you have to decide which is worse: directly killing one in order to save many, or keeping one person alive though it may indirectly lead to the loss of more innocent lives.
So personally, I'm all for capital punishment if there's proof that the person committed a crime, may potentially commit another crime in the future, and has no chance of reforming.
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Witch
(っ◕‿◕)&...
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02-27-2008, 04:13 PM
For me,
whether you kill because you want to, because you're insane, or because you're only doing it as self-defense....Someone (or more) lost their lives because of you. Even if there are human's law that will try to use many logic and reasoning to define whether your actions was right or wrong...it will be something that's you have to carry all your live, every number of life you have taken.
They're all weight the same actually, the life of one small girl or the life or a whole country.
You can try to put them on a scale, trying to feel better by saying that certain act is more forgivable than the other, that it's for a more righteous meaning than others, or other reasonings, to make you feel better. But they're all the same.
The need to justify the worth of a life is often the reason why there are many cases where someone ends up become a serial killers, because s/he once killed. A killer is a killer whether he have taken one life or a thousand lives, when he lost any excuse to defend himself, it will shaken his sense on when to stop since in his mind he's already...a killer.
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Gwendolyr
ʘ‿ʘ
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02-27-2008, 06:24 PM
In order to understand how Kira's viewpoint works, you must know that Kira wanted to be a god. That moves him out of [beyond] good/right and evil/wrong, which is why the 'killing=bad so I=bad' argument doesn't break his mind. [Or in some cases, ie Scar from FMA, he takes the burden of sin so to rid the rest of the world of sin so everyone else can be all 'happily ever after', even if he has to sacrifice himself, or innocents- but since he believed innocents went to heaven, were they really harmed?]
Killing the criminals isn't only about punishing the wicked. It was to set examples. After all, most people care about living, and if the punishment was death, wouldn't you think more than twice about committing a crime?
Something related to righteous death in Death Note, is the movie The Boondock Saints. In the end, I do think they were saints.
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CoCaptain_DV
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02-27-2008, 06:33 PM
I believe it all to be silly. If you were meant to die a certain way, then you will. If you were meant to be killed, there is nothing you can do to stop it. There's no point fighting fate or destiny, you'll always lose. I say let life and fate run it's course. If the game ends early... too bad.
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