When it comes down to rape and people believe it is kind of their fault. Thorough is what they need sometimes. =)

Still- THANK YOU. Your kind words mean a lot. :)

*Hugs to St Jimmy*

Many times too much the victim blames themselves or does not come forward. I hope you do better and understand it was not your fault. He should of been more respectful of your wishes.

I went through a...similar experience but it happened at random with someone I really trusted and I was young. I wasn't trying to be sexual or anything because I grew up so sheltered that i didn't even know what sex WAS at that time. I didn't tell him to stop because I had no clue what he was doing... ^.^; It happened for almost a week straight during the summer or when I was 15 or so... It wasn't actually rape because he never went that far but it was sexual assult because I didn't want it. I didn't know it was something I didn't want at the time. I asked him why he was doing it and all he said was "I miss my girlfriend..." I grew up in a very sheltered christian home (my parents never gave me the birds and the bees talk) and I didn't have any sex-ed classes all throughout highschool because I got lucky and all my teachers didn't want to cover it... (one of them even tore the pages out of the book!) I wasn't too concerned about not knowing because I was saving myself for marriage and figured that my husband could teach me... but when it happened I had NO CLUE what was going on and I didn't know i was supposed to say no. I felt numb and couldn't enjoy what he had done with any one else until one of my boyfriends became determined to break me into liking it and eventually I did. Point is... unless the woman KNOWS what sex is... you can't use the "if she says no" rule.

*hugs Feyona* You poor thing. I really believe that sex-ed classes help, and not just the abstinence only kind. Thankfully, after my experience, I'm still a virgin, though I got SO CLOSE to having that taken away from me. And thankfully I knew what he was trying to do and realized that it terrified me. I mean...moron didn't even have protection!

I'm sorry your parents and your classes were like that...I hope you're ok. *huggle*

I've gotten over it a lot since then. Because he's so close to my family I still had to live with seeing him often after it happened and I often felt like my family didn't really love me because they still let him into our house even after they found out it happened. He even tried it to my best friend too one night when she slept over. But since I had told her what happened she stopped him before he started anything. He's changed a lot. He was right about the same age as I was and has grown a lot since then. He has a wife and I know what she's like. I'm sure she's straightened him out. Though i don't know if she knows about what happened... *huggles back* I ran into a lot of developmental issues because of it. I went from being completely abstinent to being over-sexual and it wasn't until after I started dating the guy i'm with right now that I settled down into a normal lifestyle for that particular aspect of my life.

I've also learned a lot and even though sometimes i wish it didn't happen it's made me decide that ALL my children are going to know about sex at an early enough age to prevent even child molestation. It's said that 90% of rape victims know their attackers and most of them think it's their own fault. While at first it was true for me I'm aware now that it wasn't because I just didn't know any better...

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

Bullshit, body language does not mean consent. It never has. Just because someone body language may suggest they are into someone does not mean they are.

I have gone dancing many times, are for foolish people like you who seem to think that because some girl bumps and grinds with a guy at a club is ok for sex to happen, I tend to have only ever danced that way with Gay men.

Unless she has actually said yes, it's rape. She may have just been enjoying herself at a club and dancing in a way she finds enjoyable. She could of just been enjoying the company of a man and enjoys dancing that way with a guy.

Just because one enjoys wearing certain clothes to look good and feel good, does not mean consent. Ever. Scantily Clad clothes is never an excuse, just because one feels like looking sexy is not an open innovation for consenssual or non-consensual sex.

Same with teasing or anything else.

Just because one teases, dances, dresses or acts in a manner that is sexually appealing is not an excuse, EVER, period. It is not consent in anyway. Ever.

Unless it's someone who has that kind of fetish, of COURSE no one is going to ask someone to rape them. I mean, not exactly a grand old time is it?

I also find that there are clothes that are made specifically to attract attention to areas deemed "naughty". Now, why would you wear these clothes where many people would see them? Why would you display something private like that to members of the opposite sex that have been known to succumb to urges? Hmmm... that seems rather inappropriate and irresponsible for someone who wishes not to "give anyone the wrong idea". You can look sexy without your breasts and buttcheeks hanging out of your slinky, form-fitting sheer wrap thing I've seen some women wear.

The dancing is another thing I found silly. Yes, dancing can be sensual. Take the Tango and the Salsa dances. They are very sensual and require a lot of touch involved. However, I doubt they are dances most often found in clubs or parties that incidents like rape occur. Most of those look like they came from Rap music videos, and we know how wholesome those are. There are such dances that do not involve looking like a clothed parody of a porno. I have no qualms with women dancing. Do it. Just do it responsibly.

I also never said it was an excuse for this awful thing to happen. I simply said that by goading and teasing, men will sometimes succumb to their phsyical urges and take what they "think" was given consentually, even if verbally the woman refuses. Ever hear of the phrase "actions speak louder than words?"

Originally Posted by AkashaHeartilly

I have gone dancing many times, are for foolish people like you who seem to think that because some girl bumps and grinds with a guy at a club is ok for sex to happen, I tend to have only ever danced that way with Gay men.

Unless she has actually said yes, it's rape. She may have just been enjoying herself at a club and dancing in a way she finds enjoyable. She could of just been enjoying the company of a man and enjoys dancing that way with a guy.

Two questions:
1. If you would dance that way with straight men, what do you think they would think?
2. If you think dancing like this is harmless and not suggestive, why don't you do that with straight men?

I don't know if there's a huge cultural gap between where I live and where you live, maybe such behaviour is normal there... but here, a girl who sexes up a guy on the dance floor and then acts as if she's not interested in him is considered a bitch for toying around with the guy like that. A girl who sexes up several guys on one night and then acts as if she's not interested in them, is not taken seriously by anyone anymore.

Sorry, but I don't think there's anything that screams "I WANT SEX" more than rubbing your buttocks against someone's crotch or pushing your boobs into their face.

Originally Posted by Volucria

I don't know if there's a huge cultural gap between where I live and where you live, maybe such behaviour is normal there... but here, a girl who sexes up a guy on the dance floor and then acts as if she's not interested in him is considered a bitch for toying around with the guy like that. A girl who sexes up several guys on one night and then acts as if she's not interested in them, is not taken seriously by anyone anymore.

Are you saying that being "a bitch" or "not taken seriously" are good enough excuses to be raped?

Alright in my opinion what everyone says is kinda true I mean. The victem is never willling thats why its called rape and its a disgusting thing that anyone who does it should get killed for. But just because the person isnt willing doesnt mean its not their fault right? I mean rape can happen alot because someone goes to a place where they arnt safe and put themselves in a position where they cannot think and they are in no way near any lines of defense. They didnt arouse someone into rape and they didnt want it but they just put themselves in a position where it could happen. Thats what makes it their fault. Im not saying that there is always a place in the world that is fool proof safe or that there isnt a place where no matter what you do someone else created variables that allowed it to happen but there can be times where it is the girls fault.

So you're saying just because I'm a legal adult who was looking to enjoy my legality in the safest way possible (foreplay not the whole shebang) I DESERVED almost being raped? That my friend chose to trust someone who she knew and liked very dearly and that's her fault that he raped her twice?

I fail to see your logic Arrogant.

Originally Posted by Brinne Tanneson

Are you saying that being "a bitch" or "not taken seriously" are good enough excuses to be raped?

Aren't you the person who took words I hadn't even said out of my mouth earlier too? Don't do that, it's irritating. I don't need you to spell out an opinion and say that it's mine, even if it's not.

I NEVER said that "being a bitch" or "not being taken seriously" is a good excuse to rape someone. I never said ANYTHING is a good excuse to rape someone. Hell, I didn't even mention the word "rape" anywhere, all I did was ask Akasha if hooker-dancing is normal where she lives because it's very much looked down upon here.

I love how you completely ignored my remark about rubbing your butt against someone's crotch and such being obvious "I want sex" signs, by the way.

Fine. I tell you what I believe your opinion to be, you shout me down for putting words in your mouth. I ask you to clarify your opinion, you shout me down for putting words in your mouth.

I ignored your "rubbing your butt against someone's crotch" statement because rubbing yourself against someone else with all of your clothes on in a public place is not tantamount to consent, so I ignored it as prudery. :)

If your post regarding women who lead men on being called bitches and not being taken seriously had absolutely nothing to do with rape, then it was off topic spam, since the topic is about whether rape is ever the victims fault, and your post looks like a supporting argument stating that, in those situations, the fault lies with the victim for not following through after "rubbing their butt on someone's crotch"

Again, not putting words in your mouth, though I'll catch that accusation no matter what I do. It seems to be your most solid method of attempting to refute someone who opposes your viewpoint.

I know i'd never rub my butt against someone's crotch unless I wanted to sex them. *laughs* But then again I think I have different standards from most of the world... :sarcasm::sweat:

I can agree with that, but the crux of the issue isn't about what is good or bad taste. It's whether behavior like that makes a direct and forcible violation excusable. I believe that a woman always has the right to say no.

Originally Posted by Bartuc

If someone says "rape me" it isnt rape because there is consent. Rape is forcing sexual intercourse against a persons will. Making them a victim. You can never blame a true victim. No matter how slutty they dress, or how much they seemed like they wanted it. It all goes back to the person who pulls the trigger.

I think the same thing... When someone want to be raped, it is not a rape anymore... But the meaning of reaping is that the person don't want it... Some persons must learn that NO means NO... :Stare:

I was raped when I was 15. I was told that it was my fault because I looked so much like my damned mother. His words exactly. How was that my fault? I didn't pick my genes. It wasn't my fault that he never got over my mother leaving him. I did absolutely NOTHING to entice, tease, or provoke him. He is a very sick individual. I felt at fault for a very long time, because, jeez, I must have done SOMETHING. Maybe I hugged him the wrong way at bedtime. Maybe I kissed his cheek a little too enthusiastically. It literally took me years to understand why. Now of course I understand that it was all him. My three sisters were also involved. They were 8 years old, 4 years old, and 19 months old. How is this their fault? Now THEIR mother, along with him, are to blame. She didn't stop it for any of us. That's a whole other can of worms, though.

I will say this. If you're a hooker, don't be surprised if someone tries to rape you. You put yourself in that situation. You are, in your professional life, a SEX OBJECT. People, (sick people) will take advantage of that. Does that mean that it's her (or his!!) fault if they are raped? Of course not. It is always the fault of the person who takes it past the line of consent. There definitely ARE things that you can do to try and keep yourself out of that kind of danger. What about instances where a woman is home alone, the doors and windows are locked, and someone breaks in and rapes her? What about, like in my case, a close family member or trusted friend who crosses the line completely?

I guess to sum it all up, you have to be aware of your surroundings, and the people around you at ALL times. But shit still happens, ya know? If someone is determined, there isn't a lock in the world that will keep them out. Locks only keep honest people honest, anyways.

Originally Posted by rachaelade

It is always the fault of the person who takes it past the line of consent.

That is because of sicks persons like the one who rape ou that we must always care of what we are doing... I was rape by almost every man I liked between 13 and 18 years old... Like you said, it took time to understand that this is not our fault... I'm someone who is open to sexuality, I studied in it and like to talk about it... But I must always watch what I'm saying or doing to prevent misunderstanding and it is always something that stop me for being myself...

Originally Posted by Brinne Tanneson

I ignored your "rubbing your butt against someone's crotch" statement because rubbing yourself against someone else with all of your clothes on in a public place is not tantamount to consent, so I ignored it as prudery. :)

It does show that you are willing in the perception of the people around you. If you want, you can test how harmless people perceive it to be by going to a party and rubbing up to ten random guys. It's not because you think you should be allowed to rub up to anyone you want, that everyone else thinks it's the normal thing to do.
Before you start assuming things again: I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS A GOOD EXCUSE FOR RAPE. I am saying that this kind of behaviour is what makes men think that you are interested in sex with them, and if you don't want sex with them, you either make that clear or you don't do such stuff. Parties can be fun too without being all over other people's bodies.

If your post regarding women who lead men on being called bitches and not being taken seriously had absolutely nothing to do with rape, then it was off topic spam, since the topic is about whether rape is ever the victims fault, and your post looks like a supporting argument stating that, in those situations, the fault lies with the victim for not following through after "rubbing their butt on someone's crotch"

It was on topic because it was a reply on Akasha's post about being free to rub up against people as she pleases, but only dancing like that with gays. I asked her two questions and explained why I think it's odd to defend "meaningless" hooker-dancing.
Then you waltzed in and tore two words from my post out of their context to make it look like I think it's okay to rape people who act like they want sex, but don't really want it.
Girls who rub up against someone's genitals are not taken seriously, (insert step of logic I'm missing), therefore "not being taken seriously" is a good excuse to rape a girl. Please explain to me the step of logic in there, because I really don't see a connection.

Again, not putting words in your mouth, though I'll catch that accusation no matter what I do. It seems to be your most solid method of attempting to refute someone who opposes your viewpoint.

You've got to see my viewpoint in order to oppose it, not make one up and pretend it's mine.

Originally Posted by Volucria

I am saying that this kind of behaviour is what makes men think that you are interested in sex with them, and if you don't want sex with them, you either make that clear or you don't do such stuff.

Sometimes it is impossible to judge how the person will interpret our actions... So we are better watch carrefully !

Hey Alone? Just a heads up- the mods might get mad for the quoting the entire post above you thing.

Oups, I'll correct it ! Sorry ! :sweat:

No prob. Just didn't want you to get a newbie misdemeanor- I got one and it sucks. haha.

Thak you very much ! I corrected it !

I'm not sure if this question will be deemed off-topic or not, so mods, please say so if it is....

But I'm curious at a few people's use of "excuses for rape" thing. It just seems like Volucria and I have been accused of giving excuses for rape to be okay when we have, in fact, done no such thing.

What we are trying to explain is that not everyone knows your own body language and the lines that are actually drawn when the situation occurs. With some girls and guys, it's deemed perfectly fine to "grind dance" and it not develop any further than a dance. However.... because some people have different perceptions of other people's body language signs and interpret them differently than the woman had in mind, then yes, this leads to miscommunication, and in extreme cases, rape. It's not an excuse to say "It's alright", or "They deserved it", we just mean that another person misinterpretted that as a subconcious act of "consent", and took action reguardless of the verbal refusal.

Of course that shouldn't happen, and we've never said otherwise. But we are saying that the woman may have lead up to the incident happening while thinking that the man, who does not know her, would understand her personal body language boundaries.

Because, let's face it.... there are women out there, who when they grind dance with some man, they actually are subtly hinting that they desire sex from the man. And if that man takes those experiences and connects them with a woman who grind dances, but then doesn't actually want the sex, he may try to get it anyway, because that's what he's used to.