I know there are a couple gay marriage topics on here, but this one is specifically about gay people having children, not whether or not they should get married.

Just to be clear, I am very pro-gay rights (and am basically bi).

The other day, I was talking to a friend and we started talking about homosexuality. She thinks it would be hard for her to have a child and have that child turn out to be gay. Her reason for being weird about homosexuality is basically because she thinks children of gay couples would have it rough.

I think it depends, because if 2 people are the same gender but both fulfill the different parenting roles, it could work perfectly fine, depending on the child. But I was reminded of my aunt telling me a story about her friend who was raised by 2 very butch lesbian women (her biological mother and her biomom's girlfriend or wife or whatever). This girl had it really tough growing up, because neither of her mothers were exactly motherly, and she couldn't go to them for any girl problems, and she never learned until adulthood how to wear dresses or do her nails or anything girly at all. Yes, I know, doing your nails isn't exactly an important life skill, but this woman really wanted to do all of that girly stuff and didn't have a chance at all until she made friends with other women as an adult (apparently she didn't even know how to "talk like a girl" and found it hard to learn as an adult), and she absolutely hated her father for leaving her with 2 butch women (i'm sure that isn't a typical situation anyway, since I doubt all that many lesbian woman are butch, and the odds of both women in a couple being as butch as possible is probably not high).
What would be more typical is if a girl grew up with 2 gay dads, probably.

The point is that there doesn't have to be a clear distinction of which parent is the mother and father, just so that together they can understand everything about the child no matter if the child is the same gender as the parents or not.

My friend likened this situation to a family where either the mother or father dies or leaves. I see the connection there, since if a family is like my aunt's friend's, the child does basically miss out on one one half of the parents. I was then reminded of my other friend who grew up without a mother figure at all and had a hard time as a child.

But like I said, a lot of stuff depends on the family. If I didn't have a mother (if my mother was just not in my life or if my dad was gay and just lived with another man ever since I was little), I do still have 3 aunts on my dad's side who i do see fairly often, and i'm sure that if I didn't have a mother, my dad would just have arranged for me to visit my aunts more when I was a child.
And heck, there are plenty of families out there in which the children have terrible upbringings, even with both parents present and fulfilling both the mother and father role.

Obviously gay people have to have the right to raise children. if one of the people has a child with someone else that is actually their biological child, it would be just plain stupid for the child to have to be taken away. And it would also be stupid for people to be denied the right to adopt a child solely for the reason that they are a gay or lesbian couple. Therefore, gay couples should be able to raise children, but just how does it work?
So i'm interested in finding out more about this, since the only story I have of someone being raised by gay parents is my aunt's friend.

discuss:
-Should homosexual couples be allowed to raise children?
-Do you think it depends on the family?
-Is a family in which both parents are the same gender and basically act the same, the same situation for the children as a family in which the mother or father died or is not present?
-Do you know anyone who is part of a gay couple who has a child, or anyone who was raised by a gay couple? How did it work for them?

There actually is a topic about this already, here.

Your argument seems to be based entirely on gender roles, and to be honest, it was a little difficult to read because every single sentence made me a bit twitchy. The idea that a child growing up without having a gender role imprinted on them is a negative thing is one I don't understand. True, they may be teased, but there are many other things children are teased about. Should we not allow those below a certain income bracket have children, or limit what you can name your child to "normal" (see: mostly English) names that can't be made fun of (so no Richards)? And as for the example of the lesbian couple, I really don't see what's wrong with that. You don't learn everything from your parents, and I completely applaud them for not teaching her the things you mentioned (and what exactly does "talk like a girl" mean, anyway?). Without being told "because of the gender we've assigned you, THIS is how you dress and THIS is how you act and THIS is what you're interested in and if you're into something different you're a freak and should be ashamed", children can live as they want to live, and aren't held back by arbitrary boundaries.

And while I don't think this is exactly like the same-sex couple adoption thread, it comes back to the same issue: a parent's worth is not in their genitalia or whether they wear a dress or pants. There does not need to be a "mommy" and a "daddy", there needs to be one or more people who are capable of taking care of a child and teaching them the things that matter. If they choose to teach her a gender role, I don't agree with it, but fine. But don't act like those who choose not to are giving their child less.

Originally Posted by Philomel

And as for the example of the lesbian couple, I really don't see what's wrong with that. You don't learn everything from your parents, and I completely applaud them for not teaching her the things you mentioned (and what exactly does "talk like a girl" mean, anyway?). Without being told "because of the gender we've assigned you, THIS is how you dress and THIS is how you act and THIS is what you're interested in and if you're into something different you're a freak and should be ashamed", children can live as they want to live, and aren't held back by arbitrary boundaries.

And while I don't think this is exactly like the same-sex couple adoption thread, it comes back to the same issue: a parent's worth is not in their genitalia or whether they wear a dress or pants. There does not need to be a "mommy" and a "daddy", there needs to be one or more people who are capable of taking care of a child and teaching them the things that matter. If they choose to teach her a gender role, I don't agree with it, but fine. But don't act like those who choose not to are giving their child less.

I think it's good too that the girl's family didn't put pressure on her to be girly, but the fact that she did want the opportunity to learn how to paint her nails and all that but didn't get a chance to learn from her family when she wanted to is what i'm getting at. I don't agree with gender roles, and I'm not saying that people who are choosing to raise their child with a gender role are giving their child more or something.
My aunt's friend is the one example I know of of a child who was raised by gay parents, and her experience was a bad one. I am quite sure there are so many more families that worked well with 2 parents of the same gender, but I haven't heard those people's stories.

I'm also not saying there has to be a mother and a father specifically, but both parents can easily be both at the same time, and what matters the most is being able to communicate with their children and being receptive.
I'm quite sure that any gay couple would have thought of all of that beforehand.

But why even bring it up, if it's not about enforcing gender roles and suggesting those parents who don't are somehow shortchanging their children? She probably wasn't taught how to play the harmonica either, but if she had wanted to learn later in life she would be expected to take the initiative and learn it, and nothing would be said about the people who raised her not teaching her how to play. As I said, people do not learn everything they know from their parents.

tl;dr sorry. I'm just really tired to read all that XD (But I did skim it)

But what I will say is this;;

If straight couples can raise gay children, then gay couples can raise straight children.

Not to mention, everyone is raised differently. When a kid raised by gays also becomes gay or lives a rough life, it puts a dent in the whole gay's reputation. People start thinking "No. Gays shouldn't raise kids." But in the end, it's the individual that counts.

Let me just say that I'm not straight because my parents were. And I can't really explain why I'm straight. Really. I just am.

And a quote from my friend;

Jessica; "Why are you gay?"
Erin; "Because I like girls."
Jessica; "Why do you like girls?"
Erin; "Why do you like boys?"
Jessica; "..."
Erin; "Exactly."

That story by your aunt seems skewed to cast lesbian couples in a bad light. Not all lesbian couples are butch. And a similar situation would have arisen if the girl had been raised by a single father, or heck, even a typical heterosexual couple with a more masculine mother. The point is that that situation was never about the sexuality of the mothers, but a general lack of communication in the family unit. The girl never went to the mothers and went "Hey, I want a dress and to learn how to paint my nails." The mothers might have brought the girl to a salon and gotten her gussied up. We will never know what would have happened then. And what about friends? Didn't she have any of those? Why didn't she experiment on her own? Plenty of kids color their nails with markers or can afford a bottle of nail polish.

Either way, I would not blame the sexuality of the couple, but the communication of the family unit. Where was the father during all of this? He also had the option to step in and do these things for her. It sounds like a story you tell when you want someone to come up on your side of things. "Look how bad this poor girl had it because of the gayness in her life." But that very easily could have happened in a typical family unit.

And as far as children needing a clear mother and clear father, that is laughable. How many children grow up in single parent households these days? How many grow up in the adoption/foster care system with no parents?

As far as the question of gay people having/raising children, I heard Dan Savage, a gay advice columnist bring up an excellent point. Gay people don't have babies on accident. They don't accidentally knock girls up (mostly) because they're gay. If they want a child, it's because they really and truly want them and want to raise them and love them. You don't get accident children in gay couplings. There are enough accidental babies in the system as it is. So if a gay couple really wants a child and this child really wants parents, what is the problem?

I think these problems definitely depend on the family and the people that make them up. Not every gay family is going to be perfect. Straight families can be pretty fucked up if you'll excuse the language. So what makes them better? Having a man and a woman? Not really. The individuals are what really matter. Each family is different. Not every gay couple will be composed of two butch women or two effeminate men.There will be other people in these children's live like aunts, uncles, cousins, classmates, teachers, etc etc etc. A child is not raised without outside influence.

Your friend's comparison is off as well. Having two same sex parents is not at all like having two parents and losing one. It's a completely different situation. They still have two parents and unless those parents are identical clones, then each parent will have a different bond and fill different needs for their children. There will still always be one parent that the child will prefer to go to for a cut knee. That's just the way kids work.

I agree with Philomel. Most of what you're talking about isn't about the sexuality of the people involved at all, it's about gender roles. In your example, you cite two butch women, women who supposedly do not act like a normal woman. It's a rather lacking description. Why should it define these people? What if one of them loves kittens? Will that make her more suitably girly? What if their favorite story ever is Cinderella? Does that help?

People just need to accept the fact that people are different.

Originally Posted by Lapin

If straight couples can raise gay children, then gay couples can raise straight children.

Let me just say that I'm not straight because my parents were. And I can't really explain why I'm straight. Really. I just am.

my post had absolutely nothing to do with parents influencing a child to be gay. Because that just doesn't happen. Whether a child is straight or gay is often biological, and there is nothing wrong with it.

Originally Posted by For-Chan Cookie

That story by your aunt seems skewed to cast lesbian couples in a bad light. Not all lesbian couples are butch. And a similar situation would have arisen if the girl had been raised by a single father, or heck, even a typical heterosexual couple with a more masculine mother. The point is that that situation was never about the sexuality of the mothers, but a general lack of communication in the family unit.

that's exactly what I said. I said that not all lesbians are butch (because goodness knows, I know plenty of lesbians and none of them are butch).
So first you say that a similar situation would have arisen if the girl had been raised by a single father, and then you say that the situation of 2 parents of the same gender is not like a family missing a parent? I can sort of see where you are coming from though, because the story I used as an example is obviously not typical.

The situation with the girl who wanted to be girly could have arisen in any family. What if her parents were goths and she wanted to be a pretty princess? When I made the example with the father, it was to show that it's not just the women's fault, it could have happened to a single father, or any family.

The reason that being raised by two gay parents is not like being raised by a single parent after losing the other parent is because there is no loss! Nothing it lost. There is no grief, no sudden hole in someone's life. With two gay parents, that is the norm for the child. So to attempt to equate the two situations is completely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by For-Chan Cookie

The situation with the girl who wanted to be girly could have arisen in any family. What if her parents were goths and she wanted to be a pretty princess? When I made the example with the father, it was to show that it's not just the women's fault, it could have happened to a single father, or any family.

The reason that being raised by two gay parents is not like being raised by a single parent after losing the other parent is because there is no loss! Nothing it lost. There is no grief, no sudden hole in someone's life. With two gay parents, that is the norm for the child. So to attempt to equate the two situations is completely ridiculous.

a single parent from the beginning can also be the norm for the child. What if there was never another parent from the beginning?

Originally Posted by Liath

My friend likened this situation to a family where either the mother or father dies or leaves. I see the connection there, since if a family is like my aunt's friend's, the child does basically miss out on one one half of the parents. I was then reminded of my other friend who grew up without a mother figure at all and had a hard time as a child.

Going off of this example of your friend's reasoning, I am saying that having gay parents is not equal to losing a parent.

However, that is not to say that a child of gay parents will not ever question their lack of a mommy or a daddy. Due to peer pressure, they very well might feel the lack of a certain parental figure, but there is no loss.

It may be similar for single parents. Depending on the closeness of the parent and child, the child may never feel a lack. And they can't feel the loss of what they never had. It's different if they had two parents to begin with and one left or died.

My point in all this is that not having something is never the same as having it and getting it taken away.

Originally Posted by Liath

my post had absolutely nothing to do with parents influencing a child to be gay. Because that just doesn't happen. Whether a child is straight or gay is often biological, and there is nothing wrong with it.

Oops, sorry about that XD

I'm gay, and I reference my nephew as a child raised in a same-sex household.
I live with my sister (straight) and her son, and we've been raising her son together.
He gets everything he needs, love, discipline, learning, etc.
You don't need separate sexes, or even particularly specific rolls to raise an intelligent, well mannered, open minded and generally successful child.

I don't really see how this situation would be too different than raising a child with a partner, other than that the parents will show affection to each other (as any parents do in most cases). And I don't see how that's a roadblock to child development.

I don't think homosexual couples should be denied the right to either have custody of their child or to adopt a child. A family where the parents are homosexual aren't much different than a traditional family. You can find stable and unstable families in both homosexual and straight families, so it just depends on the family. It doesn't matter if the parents are homosexual or not.

Okay, I am straight but I believe Same sex homes are fine.
Me and my mother raise my sisters it is an all female home
I'm sure it's nothing like having two women in a relationship living in the same home
But I'm sure also that the couple isn't going to show up at a PTA meeting and be all over each other
Yes it is okay to have your own relationship whether straight or gay no one wants their parents to be all PDA in front of a lot of people

Originally Posted by Miloko

Okay, I am straight but I believe Same sex homes are fine.
Me and my mother raise my sisters it is an all female home
I'm sure it's nothing like having two women in a relationship living in the same home
But I'm sure also that the couple isn't going to show up at a PTA meeting and be all over each other
Yes it is okay to have your own relationship whether straight or gay no one wants their parents to be all PDA in front of a lot of people

I'm confused as to why you even mentioned this. Gays aren't any more sexually-driven or less in control of their actions or less aware of acceptable behaviour than anyone else, so I'm confused as to why people bring PDA up at all. Straights can be nymphomaniacs just as easily as gays can.

Of course gay couples should be able to raise children. A loving household is a loving household, it doesn't matter if there are two straight parents or gay parents, or one single parent, or grandparents. If there is love present it shouldn't matter. One of my good friends is a lesbian and she is trying to have a baby. Right now she is single, but she wants a baby of her own and she has good stable people in her life that are going to help her every step of the way. A child doesn't need a mother and father to fullly develop. A child's personality can develop totally different from there parental influences. My niece was mostly raised by my bother and my mother (who is not girly at all), but my niece is a little princess who loves pink and dolls, I know for a fact that this was not brought on by either my mother or my brother.

My buddy Zac has two moms, and he turned out fairly normal. Well, as normal as choir kids get.... In any case, the gender and orientation or ones parents is irrelevant. The important things in raising a child properly are do they know and follow the rules, and do they feel loved enough to come to their parents with problems and questions? If the answer to either is no, then perhaps the parents need to reconsider the manner in which they are raising their children. Results may vary, of course, because no two families are alike enough to say that all children will turn out the same. As for the example with the girl whose gay mothers never taught her to paint her nails or wear a dress or 'talk like a girl', my mother never taught me those things either. One can't expect one's parents to hold one's hand through 18 years. Some things, a girl or boy has to figure out for themselves. I'm still figuring out how to properly paint my nails, and while talking like a girl is second nature, reacting like one is sort of hit or miss for me. I was raised in a mostly male household for the past ten years. I'm still getting used to the idea of wearing skirts in public, and my parents are both hetero. It's not at all whether the parent/guardians are hetero, homo, bi, trans, or a-sexual. It's how they raise their kids, and how they communicate.

I think a lot of people think that because a child would be raised by a gay couple that they in turn would become homosexual themselves which of course is so untrue. As long as the child is loved and put in a safe environment and has the same advantages as a normal child, then it should not be an issue. Too many people just are too prejudice against this kind of rearing. Children are not dumb and learn quickly. Also another thing; prejudice is learned, not innately believed in. Love and acceptance is all it takes.

In the US, the conservatives say that a child needs a mother and a father figure to raise them correctly. But, I say it's the same as a single parent raising a child. There is no logic behind this argument. The outcome of the child really has nothing to do with the number or gender of their parents/guardians.

if a gay couple wants to have children then they should be allowed. they are just like every other couple out there and also the child in question can grow up to like boys(if a girl) and grow to like girls(if a boy) I mean that just because a child is raised by a gay couple doesn't mean that, that child will grow up gay as well..