I thought about where to post this... and decided on here. (Move it as necessary. o_O I wanted to talk about more than just Menewsha, so I parked it here. If it would be better elsewhere... yay?)

Avatar sites like this and others use a layering system. If you're any sort of digital artist, you'd understand this easily if you've ever used any sort of graphic art program more advanced than Paint. *chuckle* If you still don't have a concept of this, imagine it like paper dolls and you're dressing them. Hair goes over eyes, eyes go on skin... glasses would go over eyes but under hair, etc.

I'm actually working on building a site like this (no, I don't feel like self-advertising, its so small and default-y right now I don't even want to show it off, but at least the avatars are working). However... I wanted to talk about the layering system.

There are many sites that don't always have the time to listen to user requests - when they wish items to belong on a more efficient layer, etc. Sometimes, these can be considered bugs, other times, they're working as intended and therefore left ignored, despite 'how much cooler it would look if--' statements. *chuckle again*

Personally, I love Mene, but I don't have a lot of time for it these days. I've learned more about the internet in the past week than I've learned in the past year and my head's still spinning. (And the last thing I want is to be considered a 'rip off' of any site in particular. I'm not even great with pixel art, so it'll be vexel (psuedo-vector) based instead. I'm only intending my project to be a friends of friends thing for roleplaying.) It's amazing how far $12 for a domain for a whole year and free hosting with mySQL has gotten me. Manually installing phpBB was no easy task, and the old nulavatar mod was ridden with syntax errors. (Blargh.)

(Spoon questions, remember not to directly quote, use the code if you're going to - otherwise, paraphrase.)

• What do you like about Menewsha's layering system? (How many layers do we have? >_>)
  
• How many are you using right now on your avatar?
  
• Do any items annoy you in particular for being easily covered up? (Maybe you don't want your long sleeved shirt covering up your lower arm bracers/hand warmers, kind of like tight pants get to be covered up by leg warmers/puffy rave-like boot covers.)
  
• What do you notice on other sites you visit with the way their layering system works? About the same? More advanced?
  
• What's your opinion on two-toned hair or eyes? Aren't those neat? Some sites are using their layering system in fancy ways.
  
• Unrelated, but what ARE the coolest items you've ever owned on any site? Why? They were expensive? Old event/donation items now hard to obtain? Value isn't always because of rarity - there's a beauty that comes with some items, and a theme behind it. Themes can appear to be over done after a while (what site doesn't have an angel/demon set?) - and I'm not looking for ideas specifically. I just want to know why you value certain items.
  
• Do you like dark items because it suits you? White for purity? Pink because you're girly? Do you like clashing bright colors? If you were new to a site, what type of item would you go after first?

I'm not asking for coding help in particular (that'd... be just awkward, and I'm happily self-teaching myself and I'm successful thus far). I'm not asking for item suggestions, either. But sometimes, clothes are just clothes - and lots of sites are similar.

I think that some site admins (not here, obviously) aren't really as keen on making avatars... as in the art of it. You know, matching colors, layering, making sure items layer in interesting ways. I think many people take a practical approach, while others get as impractical and complicated as possible because it makes things awesome! But I think it's something that takes experience and careful listening to grasp.

It takes someone to really play with all the items to really know how they can be layered in interesting ways. If you just have a few people in charge of all the admin functions in the admin panel and adding items, and they don't really play with their avatars, they might be missing out. You know, shirts go on shirts, pants go on pants, shoes on shoes! But what about long shirts layering under short sleeved shirts and tank tops layering over short sleeved shirts? What about wearing 3 different gloves at once to get that one stripe of yellow in the middle? Sneakers go under pants, but boots go over pants. But if you have wide legged pants, they need to go over everything! Anklet jewelry would look dumb over wide pants, but "magical anklets" are something that you want to be seen no matter what! Then some items that seem simple may need various layers and complicated layer orders just to look right! You can end up with 150 layers before you know it. :)

Coolest items I've ever obtained are usually rare/hard to get items that look really neat. Here, I love my Valentine Hairpin. On Gaia, I love my nightmare/angelic scarves. But I hardly ever take off my winged anklets because it was the first item I quested for and they ended up getting scammed from me (eventually they were returned).

Although on the site I run, my favorite item is always one of the latest things I make and I pimp it out everywhere. At the moment, it's a hairstyle. And yeah, I have a love for two-toned hair! :D

I've only got a few basic layers... I'm honestly more of an artist (I'm deviantART, same username as here) than a coder so its amazing I've gotten stuff set up as far as I have. At the moment I'm having transparency issues...

Because my avatars aren't pixel based I'm ending up drawing it my program of choice (Flash), coloring it another program (Paint Tool SAI), and having to save it as a .PSD, porting it into PhotoShop to save it as a .PNG that comprehends transparency (because, apparently, SAI hates me).

My avatars are very... nontraditional. o_O



I was told:

To fix colors without modifying the code:
1. Convert all layers except for the backmost layer into 8-bit, 256 color PNG.
2. Keep all images on the backmost layer full color PNG.
This will make the end image full color without the old versions of Internet Explorer transparency glitches.

Well... I'm having issues with it. -_-" Wish me luck. And its not IE I'm having issues with - its Google Chrome! Should my backmost layer be completely blank or something?

......and once again I feel awkward in posting in this neck of the woods but I can't think of anyplace else I can put it. It's like I'm asking for help and not asking for help at the same time. Hoping, not expecting... still mostly just want discussion. ^_^

Afterall:

Originally Posted by Shion Uzuki

You know, shirts go on shirts, pants go on pants, shoes on shoes! But what about long shirts layering under short sleeved shirts and tank tops layering over short sleeved shirts? What about wearing 3 different gloves at once to get that one stripe of yellow in the middle? Sneakers go under pants, but boots go over pants. But if you have wide legged pants, they need to go over everything! Anklet jewelry would look dumb over wide pants, but "magical anklets" are something that you want to be seen no matter what!

Yikes! I can understand a different layer for shirts and coats but now that I think about it that top to bottom of "coat > tank top > t-shirt > long sleeved shirt" Makes sense. Jeez. Where would a vest fit into that? o_O Where would my users WANT a vest at in that?

I'm glad my only real direction for the future I have for my project is just... a roleplay center for my friends and their friends... At the moment, its all me, modifying open source coding and doing the art myself, and I haven't pestered my friends into doing anything other than poking around and beta-testing. They're just along for the ride for now, but down the road they're going to be great staff, I'm sure. xD

Yeah, I'm more of an artist myself (and webdesigner), but I can't program. I can modify code and I can read it and figure out what's going on. But I can't code from scratch, and it's a serious limitation for me. Sucks because I'd so program all kinds of features. But all I can do is make items and make things look pretty. :P

About your problem... what forum software / avatar system are you using? If you happen to be using phpbb2, I DO have a really heavilly modified version of Nulavatar that should have no problems displaying the images correctly. And it supports PNG-24. You also need a specific shop mod for it to work.

And yeah, layering sounds REALLY complicated, but it's not too hard, logistically when you think about it. I really think about it like layers in photoshop, and where you want things to be positioned.

For example you want to wear 2 shirts, a vest, a long coat, legwarmers, boots, and wings.

Wings
Long Coat Behind
Base
Undies
Pants
Boots
Legwarmers
Longest Shirt
T-shirt
Vest
Coat front

And that's if your bases involve a static image. We have arms that move. So instead of just shirts, we need stackable layers for the left and right arms/hands too. It can get super complicated really fast, and I'm not anywhere near adding enough layers for all the items yet. D: Craziness!

Yeah, mine started off as a fun project between myself and a few friends, but it took off kinda unexpectedly.

Just to give you guys an idea of how extensive our layering system is. We have over 200 layers :)

Originally Posted by Shion Uzuki

About your problem... what forum software / avatar system are you using? If you happen to be using phpbb2, I DO have a really heavilly modified version of Nulavatar that should have no problems displaying the images correctly. And it supports PNG-24. You also need a specific shop mod for it to work.

Yes, phpBB2 and its sitting on (currently free) hosting (free = random, harmless errors from slowness... blah) with a domain name, of course. Avaricia has a thread about stuff like this, but their version of Nulavatar isn't what I'm using, I went out to hunt the original file (yay, digging through the sections of internet that have been dead for years!) - but you have your own version of Nulavatar? Do want. owo!! (Do you suppose it will support animated gifs, just in case?)

Which shop mod? Zarath's site is... dead. And I can't seem to find any files for it off his site, so I hope its not that one. I'm looking into using Advanced Dungeons and Rabbits (since that was recommended to me) but haven't installed it yet.

I'm currently using Xore's Cash Mod, since its still seems to have plenty of support, but I don't have a shop for it yet - but ADR works with it, and I got it specifically for ADR.

If all else fails its not too early to start from scratch again. I've got less than 10 members and, like, barely two hair styles in multiple colors, two eye styles in multiple colors, two mouths, two shirts, only one comes in multiple colors, and one type of pants in multiple colors with like... 10 skin tones including green (because one of my friends insisted on plant people? *facepalm* ...looks more like aliens).

edit: Thanks for the PM, Shion Uzuki. ^_^ Too bad the link in that thread on Avaricia is down. T.T;

- - - -

Originally Posted by jellysundae

Just to give you guys an idea of how extensive our layering system is. We have over 200 layers :)

Thanks for that! :shock: That's amazing. One of the best things about Menewsha is the ability to multi-equip things. I've been stalking this site for... wow... a long time. I'm 20 now, but I was here my junior year of highschool and I remember the old fishing game (we still hard card flip then)... someone found an exploit and suddenly fishing went bye-bye and to compensate everyone received quite a bit of gold. I bought myself my first set with it.

There really are so many complications with running large sites and for my own stress factor my intention really is only something my friends and close friends of friends can play with. But that's how the internet works, right? Word of mouth? ...-.- I hope it stays small until I'm ready to deal with absolute strangers.

- - - -

I guess I got what I wanted out of this thread, but if anyone else has input, its definitely welcome. ^_^

Edit 2: Thought of a new issue. Hair. Say you have long hair... and a high collared coat... the bangs/front hair would go over the collar, but the back hair would have to be behind it. Now, say you were wearing only a t-shirt... you'd still need that back hair to exist. Meaning the hair needs to be on at least two layers - front and back. But both are equipped with the SAME "item" and only appear to be one. One item, with two layers.

I can't DO that with the current system I'm using. Dx

However, logic says that, on the same line as two toned hair, I could make hair that could be mixed and matched. Can't wait to figure out the solution to this mess...