This angers me. For one, it just puts a bad reputation on Ontario. For two, now that it's legal, more usage of this service will be used, meaning, even more spreading of different STDs. Not only that, when younger people, like teens know that it's legal, they'll think it's more acceptable to be a prostitute, since it's legal. For three, it's slightly degrating. Women should have more respect for themselves. And if you honestly have no other choice, just pick up your act. Go live with a friend or family member, get a REAL job and have some goals in life. Don't be setting bad examples for the younger group of people. I understand it's happening whether it's legal or not, it's still going to be done, but now that it is legal, there's going to be so much more of it..

Your thoughts?

With prostitution now legal men and women who are prostitutes can get legitimate jobs. They can pay taxes and get healthcare (though, I'm not sure how it works in Canada, but in the US, where I'm from, insurance often comes with a fulltime job).
With healthcare comes STD treatment and information on birth control and prevention of STD transmission. It also means when someone gets a treatable STD, it will get treated, which means they will get better, and then won't transmit that disease to anyone else.

It would also get them away from abusive pimps who use things like drug addiction to keep them there doing what he wants.
A lot of women given the choice would do something else if they could, but, they got started and due to the drugs the pimps were feeding her, she's now to addicted to leave. Chances are, the pimps are also mentally and physically abusive, cause I mean, hey, "they're just a whore."

I don't think there's going to be "more" of it though. There is still going to be the negative association with it for a very long time, if not for forever.

I mean, the same could be said of porn, because porn is legal every teenager wants to be a porn star, but the fact of the matter is, most women don't really even consider that an option. It's usually a "last resort," and then they get stuck in that lifestyle of a variety of reasons.

True. I just think it's unfortunate... To me, I just see it as, selling your body to someone for a night for money. It just doesn't seem right.

Well it's not like making it illegal made it go away, and it's certainly more dangerous as something that's offered "black market." Think about it; if you use an escort service that's legal, you could be entitled to all sorts of things, like STD-free escorts. With it being illegal and unregulated, there is no such guarantee. This industry will fall under the scope of the health department, so if anything, we can expect to see the spread of disease decrease. I imagine that these sex workers will have mandatory regular screenings, and workers who test positive for STD's or STI's will not be able to work again until they are clean.

Similarly, legalizing it makes it subject to zoning laws, which will help keep services away from residential areas, schools, or churches (similar zoning laws apply to bars and pubs). This means it's less likely for children to be exposed; you'll know where the escorts are, so you know where to keep your children away from.

Finally, legalization helps women. As the practice is legitimized, it will be much more difficult to exploit female escorts; they'll be entitled to all of the protections offered by labor laws, including (as monstahh` mentioned) health care, overtime, worker's compensation, and adequate working conditions. (tongue-in-cheek: it'll also be a crime to "steal" from a prostitute as well ;D)

To address another point: not every prostitute (who may be male OR female, thanks) has a friend or family member they can just "move in with" and it's not all that easy to "just get a job." You're severely oversimplifying and generalizing a very wide array of people. Yes, some people do it for a very very long time, and make a career out of it. And some people do it just to get through a rough spot (like to pay for college, for example). Working as a prostitute can certainly help further other unrelated goals. Not all of these people are as sleazy as you seem to be implying.

Furthermore, what makes a prostitute so much different from, say, a porn star?

Honestly, what's wrong with prostitution? It's not my cup of tea, but that's why I'm not a prostitute and don't seek their services. That doesn't mean I see them as dirty scum.
As for legalization, I'm pretty much in agreement with the above post as to why that would be a good thing and help both workers and clients alike, and in general be more beneficial to the community as a whole.

I'm going to agree with monstahh` and Keyori here. Prostitution is the oldest profession. And I really think it's the same as pornography. Have sex with other people, get paid...put it on video - LEGAL! Not on video? Too bad so sad. There's probably more to it, but I like to simplify things.

And as Glitter Golgatha said, it's just not my thing. Which is why I won't be one, or go to one. In the long run, it's really benefiting everyone by legalizing it.

I've known a couple of prostitutes and both of them were far safer than a couple of my other promiscuous friends- ones who don't get paid to have sex. The exchange of money in itself does not make an act any more or less risky.

The prostitutes I have known also put a TON of effort into their profession. It's not just "easy money" and it IS a job. They are far more "respectable" than some other people I have known.

I think you have a very narrow view of what prostitution is like, one that has been fed to you through the media and other sources, and one that is not wholly accurate. Yes there are some bad apples in the bunch but not all prostitutes and sex workers are just sleazy, STD-ridden hoes out to make easy money.

As long as there are age restrictions and other laws protecting prostitutes, I'm all for legalizing it. To me, "selling your body" can be comparable to modeling (particularly nude modeling such as Playboy), stripping, or making pornography. All of these things are legal and they are all things that may be the only thing feeding certain families. I don't necessarily agree with prostitution or any of the other things, but do what you can to get by. If you enjoy it, good for you! Be safe and all is well.

I imagine that restrictions barring sex with a minor would apply to prostitution anyway, not to mention child labor laws. Exactly what new restrictions would be needed?

Keyori's pretty much already said everything I would have (surprise, surprise :P), but I will say that I really don't care for this talk of "selling yourself" or "selling your body". Prostitutes do neither -- they sell a service, that's all. You wouldn't say that anyone else in a service industry is selling "herself" or "her body", just because she's using her body in that service (massage therapists, for instance). This idea that a prostitute is giving over ownership of herself to her client, or doing anything more than simply providing them with a service, is not only a perfect example of women being reduced to their genitalia, but also a big contributor to the issues with consent so many have with regards to sex workers, like the idea that it isn't rape if the victim is a sex worker, or it isn't rape if you've paid already. This has lead some myopic individuals, mostly MRAs, to question if the right to withdraw consent should be taken from sex workers, since in their minds, they have bought the woman's body, and thus she should not be able to change her mind. I just really think we should change how we discuss this topic, whether you're for or against it.

I was actually expecting you to disagree that legalization would help women. Not sure why, I just imagined you making some sort of argument that it would make things worse for them. o3o

Though I bet in some countries it would be worse, but those are ones where women are regularly and systematically exploited anyway. They have a slew of other problems to deal with first. In industrialized countries though, I don't see as many barriers for ensuring that women are protected properly when working in the sex industry.

Not at all XD I'm a big proponent of legalizing prostitution. I don't see how legalizing any industry -- and applying the same standards that exist in all legal industries -- could possibly harm the workers in said industry. I've honestly never heard an argument against it that isn't based entirely on stereotyping sex workers because it's a profession you yourself wouldn't choose or presuming to know what's "best" for women, which, as always, means taking away their autonomy.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Keyori's pretty much already said everything I would have (surprise, surprise :P), but I will say that I really don't care for this talk of "selling yourself" or "selling your body". Prostitutes do neither -- they sell a service, that's all. You wouldn't say that anyone else in a service industry is selling "herself" or "her body", just because she's using her body in that service (massage therapists, for instance). This idea that a prostitute is giving over ownership of herself to her client, or doing anything more than simply providing them with a service, is not only a perfect example of women being reduced to their genitalia, but also a big contributor to the issues with consent so many have with regards to sex workers, like the idea that it isn't rape if the victim is a sex worker, or it isn't rape if you've paid already. This has lead some myopic individuals, mostly MRAs, to question if the right to withdraw consent should be taken from sex workers, since in their minds, they have bought the woman's body, and thus she should not be able to change her mind. I just really think we should change how we discuss this topic, whether you're for or against it.

Great points, Philomel. "Selling your body" also conjures notions that the sex worker has to do anything the client wants her to, even if she doesn't want to, and that's patently false as well. The ladies I know work hard at their jobs- selling a service. They don't just lay there or do things they don't want to.

The ones I have spoken with prefer decriminalization over legalization and regulation. I tend to agree.

Originally Posted by cherry cocaine

The ones I have spoken with prefer decriminalization over legalization and regulation. I tend to agree.

Now that's surprising. May I ask why that is?

I think that it's a good thing that it's legal. It's a profession. I'm not one to go offer sex in exchange for money but I also see no reason why people who chose to be a prostitution should be charged with a crime, not to mention that legalizing prostitution, also makes it a safer profession and would actually decrease the spread of STDs/STIs if the prostitutes were tested and screened instead in a professional environment. I also have no t heard anything negative aside from people getting all mad about it because prostitution involves sex.

As mentioned, the porn industry is huge so how is prostitution that much different? I really never understood the logic there unless I'm missing something. I also would agree with the fact that not all people that chose to be a prostitute or that are forced to do it are skanky or "whores". I am not just referring to women when I say things.

Originally Posted by Philomel

Now that's surprising. May I ask why that is?

Decriminalization is more lenient for the prostitute than legalization. As this puts it:

The legalized system in Nevada is often discussed as a model for other states. The women work out of brothels and have little control of their working conditions. Unfortunately, it appears that by legalizing rather than decriminalizing prostitution, we end up exchanging one exploitive system for another- one set of bureaucrats for another. Many prostitutes simply cannot or would not work within the confines of a brothel.

The women I know run their businesses just fine and if it were legalized and regulated, they would continue to work illegally in order to maintain control over their own business. I know if I were doing sex work, I wouldn't want to pay someone else my hard-earned money for doing what I'd rather do for myself anyway, not to mention for having to do most of the actual labor. So they wouldn't really benefit at all from legalization/regulation, and would be in the exact position they are in now.

So far as medical safety goes, that article points out that regulation through licensing wouldn't increase safety or lower the threat of STDs either. My friends in this business already get tested frequently... and not all people who are "escorts" even engage in the same activities. Some women just do massage with "release" at the end. My friends say they already have to deal with men wanting intercourse with no condom and I'm sure if my friends were deemed safe, the guys would try even harder to go without protection, jeopardizing the women's safety in an already risky business.

If they had to get licensed, they'd also always be in some database somewhere, and even legal I'm sure prostitution wouldn't look so hot in a background check.

Hm. That's a good point, one I hadn't considered before. Thank you for responding :)

@cherry cocaine-
So essentially the reasoning you are presenting is that free market capitalism is the most ideal means of operating society?

Originally Posted by Crimson Fang

@cherry cocaine-
So essentially the reasoning you are presenting is that free market capitalism is the most ideal means of operating society?

Isn't that a little :offtopic: ?

I think a lot of forms of government look good on paper, but humans are corrupted easily, so, all of these systems (economical, government, ect) people will eventually find a way to cheat.
But, capitalism is usually the best way for society to "progress." :yes:

Anyway, on topic, does anyone from Ontario know what legal changes came along with the legalization of prostitution? Has there already been a move to protect these men and women?

Edit: Edited for clarification, my point seemed misunderstood.

Originally Posted by monstahh`

Isn't that a little :offtopic: ?
[/B]

Not particularly, I think it is a fair analysis of the theoretical framework which their source is operating from. Indeed the following two quotes come from their very source.

I can think of nothing worse than having to work for a bureaucrat

The government does not relinquish it's power and control, and it is unrealistic to believe otherwise. Once established, a legalized system will not give way to a laissez- faire one.

Capitalism isn't a form of government, it's an economic system (though I suppose, in the US at least, it might as well be). I don't really agree with your statement that "capitalism is usually the best way for society to progress", but if Red's post was off-topic, then I know a request for you to support that will definitely be.

However, now that I think about it, I believe Red makes a very good point. I can definitely understand women not wanting to work within the confines of a brothel. I don't believe that bit is necessary for legalization. However, them not wanting any oversight whatsoever is a common sentiment among workers in all industries; that doesn't make it the best choice, and it doesn't take all workers' concerns into consideration. The only thing decriminalization really changes is whether or not they can be arrested and imprisoned for it. It does not remove all penalties; they could still be fined for it. It does not make it an accepted, legal profession, so assaults on sex workers would likely still go unreported. It does not make it any easier to tell consensual, responsible sex work from underage or otherwise coerced sex slavery.

I didn't call capitalism a form of government, I meant that things that look good on paper, like capitalism or socialism, or even democracy can be corrupted depending on the people, I'm sorry I didn't explain my point clearly enough. :O
The reason I say that capitalism is the best way for society to progress is because of how it's set up, it's designed for progress, while a system like socialism/communism tends to cause stagnation. See Soviet Russia. :sweat:

& Rape is still rape even if they're a prostitute. Ever heard that joke, "Is it really rape if it's a prostitute? Oh no it's shoplifting, hurrhurr." I think that joke really describes how many people view prostitution, as a sick joke. I think people need to change their view on it and the people who are a part.
However, just like giving rights to African Americans, and giving women the right to vote, it will take time for society to change their views.

@Crimson: Okay, I see your point, I didn't read the entirety of her source. I think your comment is fairer and more on-topic now. :yes: I'm sorry for the confusion. I just didn't understand how it connected.

I don't agree with that, either. The Soviet Union is a single example, and while it did fail rather catastrophically, I wouldn't necessarily say that socialism was the cause, nor would I call it stagnant, and it certainly doesn't say anything about capitalism. If anything, capitalism is more stagnant, as it requires any change to come from the top, the people who put current standards in place to begin with, supported them, and potentially have the most to lose if they change, while giving very little power to those under them, the ones who actually want the change, and making empowerment or improvement difficult.

There is a legal precedent for obvious, even admitted, rapes of sex workers being prosecuted as something else or not at all, so no, rape isn't always rape in the eyes of the law. Legalizing, rather than simply decriminalizing, prostitution is a big step toward changing that.

Yeah, but rape should be considered rape, no matter what, is what I'm trying to say. :( And I think it's sad that people think that way about it. But change in that thinking will take time to change, no matter what is what I'm saying about that. =O

Also, I'd go into more detail, about the government stuff, but that IS really off topic if we keep going at it. XD But, I think we just view them a little differently. And that's all that needs to be said about it right now. ^^ No big deal.

I don't think I can post a link to this article because the image on her site is definitely adult material, but a sex worker named "furrygirl" just made a post about the very topic of decriminalization versus legalization. So instead I'll quote it here and attribute it to her, and you can google her name if you'd like the link. It's in regards to how some people compare the fact that the healthcare industry is regulated, and so should be prostitution. It's slightly off-topic from the questions/thoughts directed my way, but the health side of things is often brought up and I thought it was an interesting read.

Originally Posted by furrygirl

Legalization versus decriminalization: why the healthcare analogy is misapplied
by Furry Girl
01.14.11

First, some background and terminology for those of you not familiar with this debate. Laypersons often confuse and conflate legalization and decriminalization, but they're two different approaches.

To legalize sex work would mean regulating sex work and sex workers. For example, prostitution has been legalized in some parts of Nevada: but only at licensed brothels where women are required to get weekly health screenings and pay all sorts of fees to become a registered prostitute. A sex worker is treated as a controlled vice without a lot of options. Think of legalization as similar to how bottles of liquor are handled in states where you have to go to special government-run stores (with bad hours) to purchase them.

To decriminalize sex work would mean to remove any laws that make sex work illegal or regulated. It does not treat sex work as a special class of work that requires extra taxes, permits, fees, or regulations. A sex worker is like any other worker in the eyes of the law. Think of decriminalization as akin to being able to freely buy and sell oranges without needing a special orange permit or to reside in an citrus-zoned area. You can buy oranges from a top-end grocery story, or from a guy on the side of the road.

I am in favor of decriminalization, of course.

A key argument for legalization is that it's safer for everyone because the sex industry needs regulation, and the arguer will compare it to how we regulate healthcare industries. After all, prostitution means dealing with bodily fluids and germs and things, so don't we need the government to mandate by law that workers are getting STI tests and/or using condoms? Doctors and nurses are licensed and regulated!

My answer is to let a free market decide.

Under decriminalization, if sex worker wants to work in a "proper" brothel where they are required by the brothel owners to use condoms and get STI checks every week, they can. And if a customer wants that level of regulation to feel safe, they can patronize those businesses. Other sex workers can work independently, or for agencies that don't require weekly STI checks, or in a small group working together out of a single space (ho-op?). Customers can then make their choice as to whether to use their services or not. Sex workers (and clients) don't need the government to decide what's best for everyone, protecting consenting adults from determining the level of risk they find acceptable for their own lives.

But, back to the medical analogy. It's a good point, right? We don't just let random people pose as doctors and operate on patients, or encourage any person show up to a hospital and work as a nurse, so why let sex workers and their clients negotiate their own boundaries? I agree with the medical analogy the legalization camp uses, but they are completely uninformed in how they use it.

The healthcare industry already is a free market where anyone with any level of training (or lack thereof) is allowed to set up shop and offer to heal customers. Homeopathy, hypnosis, aromatherapy, ayurveda, eating bizarre ground up animal parts, all that. You can choose to have a baby in a hospital, or give birth in a kiddie pool in your living room with unlicensed self-proclaimed midwives and/or doulas. You can choose to go to a medical doctor or a shaman when you have an ailment. You can pray to Jesus, or you can get take insulin for diabetes. You can even be like Bob Marley and willingly die untreated curable things if you so please. I might laugh hysterically at new age healing beliefs, but that doesn't mean I think adults shouldn't be allowed to make that choice.

Now that this is settled, can we stop using the medical analogy, please?

(This is not to say that I think that independent decrimininalized sex work is some sort of homeopathy-esque scam or of a lesser quality than legalized/regulated sex work. The analogy is only valid so far as the free market aspect is concerned.)

@Crimson- No, I'm not saying that all of society should be operated by free market capitalism. This is a thread specific to prostitution and I am responding within the confines of the topic.

@Philomel- Why would there still be the possibility of fines with decriminalization? I disagree that rapes would go unreported to the same extent that they do today with decriminalization. Many sex workers do not report rape and assault for fear of legal repercussions. Remove the fear of severe legal repercussions like jail time and they would feel safer reporting violent incidents. I also don't see how legalization would make it that much easier to tell coerced/sex slavery than decriminalization would. I'm not totally knowledgeable on the subject, but I think that what might help would be to keep pandering (i.e., pimping) illegal, combined with decriminalization of prostitution.