Please try to avoid making arguments personal, guys. This forum is for discussing the topic, not attacking one another. Let's keep this polite and friendly. :yes:

To make it illegal would still make it very hard to enforce that law. Some women don't even show, some women look pregnant but are not. Also, there would be the pesky problem of what the women do in the privacy of their home. I know women who have had a drink or two while pregnant, yes they run the risk, and sometimes the child is allright, sometimes they aren't. I do think it is allright for a bartender to stop serving a known pregnant woman drinks when it starts to go beyond a casual drink and she is becoming plastered, afterall, they're allowed to stop serving people based on judgement.

But there really shouldn't be laws governing a woman's body, even if she is pregnant. If a woman does drink and loses the baby, it was probably for the best because she might have not been the most responsible parent in that case and she will have to live with the guilt afterwards. Seriously.. everyone gets so involved in the safety of the fetus there are times I'm surprised no one has tried making pregnant women just stay in bed and not leave the house to ensure that nothing harms or sickens le fetus.

Of course, I could go in a totally different direction by saying pregnant women are not breeding animals to be controlled. Have some faith in them to make wise decisions, and let natural selection take it's hold. Seriously.. the world population will not suffer if some people do not successfully procreate and that would cut back on many cases of genetically passed on diseases that can be even more severe and fatal.

Originally Posted by Keyori

You don't have to go to medical school to know the chemistry of a beverage. If anything, you'd want to be a chemist or a mathematician. All the analysis requires is knowing the percent alcohol by volume (which is printed on the label) and the size of a serving (which can easily be estimated, or you can probably find figures listed by the FDA). Multiply the percent by the serving size and you get the volume of pure alcohol in that particular drink. So even though the percent is lower for, say, a beer, you can still get the same volume of alcohol as a more concentrated shot.

It's not medicine. It's math.

i wasnt saying that alcohol had anything to do with going to medical school i said why is her research better than ppl who have gone medical school.. i gave info in my 1st post that i got from a obgyn..
im done with this topic to each their own...

I believe it should be illegal everywhere for people to sell pregnant women alcohol. alcohol can cause major defects in the fetus/ unborn child. both mental physical. drinking while pregnant can cause learning dissability and can hinder thought process. it also creates a very distinct facial features where the eyes are further apart then normal and the bridge of the nose is a bit flattened.

it's unhealthy for the mother as well as the baby and just shouldnt be done

Sora thinks that anything that could potentially harm the baby should be illegal. In the end, the baby is the one who is going to suffer the consequences, so Sora is against drinking while pregnant until someone can prove that drinking doesn't affect the baby.............AT ALL!

Originally Posted by ShizukaYuki

I believe it should be illegal everywhere for people to sell pregnant women alcohol.

How would you be able to even tell if the woman is pregnant? Not every woman looks like she is about to burst.

Originally Posted by ShizukaYuki

I believe it should be illegal everywhere for people to sell pregnant women alcohol. alcohol can cause major defects in the fetus/ unborn child. both mental physical. drinking while pregnant can cause learning dissability and can hinder thought process. it also creates a very distinct facial features where the eyes are further apart then normal and the bridge of the nose is a bit flattened.

it's unhealthy for the mother as well as the baby and just shouldnt be done

That might sound good in theory, but as Keyori said, not every woman look likes she's pregnant when she is. How are the bars/clubs supposed to keep track of the pregnant women. Are we gonna make them wear a sign? That would be ridiculous, and probably against the constitution.
And also that would make the pregnant women at the same level as people who has not yet come of age. And I like to think that we've come a long way since the time that women was seen as less than men, people that couldn't take care of themselves.
(It really feels like I've said this before so I'm not gonna keep going)

Originally Posted by Aspinou

That might sound good in theory, but as Keyori said, not every woman look likes she's pregnant when she is. How are the bars/clubs supposed to keep track of the pregnant women. Are we gonna make them wear a sign? That would be ridiculous, and probably against the constitution.
And also that would make the pregnant women at the same level as people who has not yet come of age. And I like to think that we've come a long way since the time that women was seen as less than men, people that couldn't take care of themselves.
(It really feels like I've said this before so I'm not gonna keep going)

thats true. i never really thought but the first few months and hen those women who even at 8 months don't really show....

that makes things harder XD women just need to be smarter about what they put in their bodies when they are pregnant

The biggest problem with this law is that there is no way for a bartender to be able to tell that every mother-to-be coming into the bar is pregnant, while it is certainly poor judgment on the woman's part to drink if she's going to have a baby there would be no way to stop her from drinking on her own time. It's unrealistic and therefore ineffective. The bartender should be allowed to refuse service to anyone based on their judgment of the situation and since I'm a conservative I think the government should back off on small businesses and peoples personal choices. So I'm in no way in favor of such a law being put in place. I say don't even stop the woman from drinking (it's not like you really can anyway) if something happens to the unborn baby then it's her fault and she can deal with the consequences.

Bottom line, you have fee will, you should be allowed to use it to an extent. If something happens to you as a result of a choice you make well that's just your own problem isn't it?

Originally Posted by ShizukaYuki

I believe it should be illegal everywhere for people to sell pregnant women alcohol. alcohol can cause major defects in the fetus/ unborn child. both mental physical. drinking while pregnant can cause learning dissability and can hinder thought process. it also creates a very distinct facial features where the eyes are further apart then normal and the bridge of the nose is a bit flattened.

it's unhealthy for the mother as well as the baby and just shouldnt be done

That's like a worst-case scenario. I got married while pregnant. I had a glass of champagne to celebrate. My child turned out fine. Most women don't even know they're pregnant for at least several weeks, during which time many drink and even get drunk. In most cases their babies turn out fine. I highly doubt a glass of wine on a special occasion is going to harm a fetus, yet you would make this illegal for women to decide for themselves? And what if they plan to abort the fetus anyway? (Of course, they probably won't be showing at that point, but still, hypothetically.)

What else should be illegal for women to do while pregnant? Just about anything you CAN do, even breathe or drive or walk down the street, carries some sort of risk.

I feel that if you decide to bring a new life into this world, the least you could do is respect that life and avoid anything that's potentially dangerous to the health of your developing child. Women who drink copious amount of alcohol while they're pregnant shouldn't be mothers (emphasis on copious). I know I sound harsh on this, but if you're going to drink A LOT and you KNOW it's going to harm your baby, then don't have the baby in the first place! The baby doesn't need to suffer the consequences based on your actions. Abortion is one thing - there ARE exceptions (like rape, broken condoms, etc.) but drinking alcohol is another thing. There's no need to drink while your pregnant. And I'm pretty sure many, MANY people know that alcohol while pregnant equals health complications for the baby. There's just no excuse.

It should be illegal. The baby can not stop what is being put in the body. If cigs cause the case of small babies. Because the mother decided too smoke during pregnancy. I know because my niece did that now she has a little boy that has to take one pill a day for the rest of his life. If not he would just lay there lifeless. Its said in these cases because the mother doesn't suffer the child does. It should be put down. As child abuse

Should we ban pregnant women from smoking?

Drinking coffee or energy drinks?

Exercising too heavily?

Taking aspirin?

Changing cat litter or dealing with cat feces can cause pregnant women to contract toxoplasmosis, which leads to serious birth defects. Shall we ban pregnant women from caring for or owning cats?

Obviously, it would be better if pregnant women didn't drink or do any of the above. But I don't think we should set a precedent for legally enforcing good prenatal care.

It definitely should be illegal, same as smoking while pregnant and driving while pregnant. Even if it's your body, you're holding another life in it and carry the responsibility of two persons.

Heck, charge them with child endangerment on top of that.

Originally Posted by KimJoonGi

It definitely should be illegal, same as smoking while pregnant and driving while pregnant.

This is exactly the sort of reason why I think we should avoid legislating pregnant women's behavior. Soon you've got them locked up at home, like children, unable to live their own lives because someone else thinks it best that they avoid everyday risks for the sake of the "baby."

I don't think making it illegal for a woman who is pregnant to drink alcohol is the right way to go. I think bartenders should advise women who are pregnant not to drink or to at least limit the amount they drink. If a law is made that makes it illegal for a woman to drink while pregnant would be labeling women incompetent to make their own decisions. They know they're not supposed to drink (or at least not much) while pregnant. They are informed by their doctor of the risks, so they know what they can and can't do while pregnant. Also. what if it's a woman early in her pregnancy? It's pretty much impossible to tell a woman is pregnant for a while...so what would happen? Would every woman that walked into a place that served alcohol if they're pregnant or not? There can be advisory that they don't drink, but you can't make them stop. There was a time when alcohol was illegal, but did that stop people from drinking? No. People just became more secretive about it.

Originally Posted by Doomfishy

This is exactly the sort of reason why I think we should avoid legislating pregnant women's behavior. Soon you've got them locked up at home, like children, unable to live their own lives because someone else thinks it best that they avoid everyday risks for the sake of the "baby."

Out actions are instituted by legislation every single day, and so? Pregnant women are no exception, especially when they're putting the life of another's at risk.

So then we should allow drunk driving, because it's their life and their own responsibility. Let's completely change the definition of what a life is, also, to avoid moral dilemmas.

No, I'm sorry but I can't agree with that.

Originally Posted by KimJoonGi

Out actions are instituted by legislation every single day, and so? Pregnant women are no exception, especially when they're putting the life of another's at risk.

So then we should allow drunk driving, because it's their life and their own responsibility. Let's completely change the definition of what a life is, also, to avoid moral dilemmas.

No, I'm sorry but I can't agree with that.

Punishing someone for driving drunk is based on their behavior, not their state of being. Anyone who drives while intoxicated is subject to the same risk of legal discipline as the next person. Punishing a pregnant woman for doing what would otherwise be completely within her rights - if she weren't pregnant - is inherently discriminatory. It would create a completely different legal standard for women of reproductive age than for anyone else. As has already been noted, individual women discover pregnancy at different stages, and NO woman - in the history of time - has ever been cognizant of the exact moment that her pregnancy began. It's impossible to know for a fact that you're pregnant until, on average, you've been pregnant for 2-3 weeks.

So, when do we punish women for crimes against their own pregnancies? When they become pregnant, or when they become AWARE that they're pregnant? If the latter, how do we prove that any individual woman was aware of her pregnancy when she drank, smoked, or drove? If the former, how do we avoid subjugating ALL women, age 11 though menopause, under the assumption that they may be pregnant even if they have yet to realize it?

Can of worms much?

Originally Posted by Doomfishy

Punishing someone for driving drunk is based on their behavior, not their state of being. Anyone who drives while intoxicated is subject to the same risk of legal discipline as the next person. Punishing a pregnant woman for doing what would otherwise be completely within her rights - if she weren't pregnant - is inherently discriminatory. It would create a completely different legal standard for women of reproductive age than for anyone else. As has already been noted, individual women discover pregnancy at different stages, and NO woman - in the history of time - has ever been cognizant of the exact moment that her pregnancy began. It's impossible to know for a fact that you're pregnant until, on average, you've been pregnant for 2-3 weeks.

So, when do we punish women for crimes against their own pregnancies? When they become pregnant, or when they become AWARE that they're pregnant? If the latter, how do we prove that any individual woman was aware of her pregnancy when she drank, smoked, or drove? If the former, how do we avoid subjugating ALL women, age 11 though menopause, under the assumption that they may be pregnant even if they have yet to realize it?

Can of worms much?

"OMG it's so unfair!" Give me a break. I wouldn't care if it wasn't affecting the health of another. You know, kind of like bans on people smoking in public areas? It's the same concept.

Also, I'm not talking about shoulda, coulda, woulda-been pregnant women. I'm talking about pregnant women who are aware they are pregnant. You can't and shouldn't punish someone for not knowing, but if the woman is fully aware of their pregnancy, then maybe we should inform pregnant women of risks that they take. Things you can't help, like something that happens to be in food or the air, or your car, tuna cans, aluminum, fine. You can't help that.

But doing drugs (that the doctor says should not be taken during pregnancy. There is a reason drug-commercials have those disclaimers 'do not take while pregnant'. Do you think that's unfair and discriminate also?), smoking and drinking, then yeah, I think a woman should be charged with child endangerment for not risking the health of another. It's no longer 'just the women'. A woman who doesn't have a child is just a woman, therefore why would they be charged with endagering someone else if there isn't someone else? That 'it's not fair if they're not being charged for it before, but now they are' doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe you don't recognize that it's a child, baby, fetus, living thing. But that's what I believe it is, and based on that, is why I think it's endangering a life other than the parent now.

Originally Posted by KimJoonGi

"OMG it's so unfair!" Give me a break.

My point wasn't to garner your sympathy. :roll: The question is whether such discrimination could possibly be constitutional. You might be aware that unconstitutional laws tend to be short-lived.

Originally Posted by KimJoonGi

I wouldn't care if it wasn't affecting the health of another. You know, kind of like bans on people smoking in public areas? It's the same concept.

Except that pregnancy is rather unique in that it is affected by what a woman does to herself, whether in private or public. Depending on who you ask, this may or may not have ethical implications, but it definitely does have practical implications.

For example, do we punish anorexics for not eating enough during pregnancy? There's a good chance that it'll have negative long-term effects on the child after birth, and so I have no problem saying that it is unethical to not eat enough if you intend to carry your pregnancy to term. But practically, does it make sense to lock up mentally ill women for their psychosis? Does it make any more sense with alcoholics and drug addicts? Who does it help? We have a constitutional right to due process, so there's no way it could help the fetus - the pregnancy would be completed long before the delivery of a verdict. And the fear of imprisonment might prevent women struggling with these conditions from seeking proper treatment.

Originally Posted by KimJoonGi

Also, I'm not talking about shoulda, coulda, woulda-been pregnant women. I'm talking about pregnant women who are aware they are pregnant. You can't and shouldn't punish someone for not knowing, but if the woman is fully aware of their pregnancy, then maybe we should inform pregnant women of risks that they take. Things you can't help, like something that happens to be in food or the air, or your car, tuna cans, aluminum, fine. You can't help that.

First off, how do you propose we prove that any given woman knew she was pregnant when she drank or smoked? Right up until the third trimester, there's a pretty wide margin of plausible deniability. Even then, women with a number of physical and mental disorders - including obesity and eating disorders - often show few, if any, distinct signs of pregnancy - right up until birth.

Second, how can you possibly say that a woman can't help but eat tuna, but that an alcoholic can control whether she drinks? Obviously both can make the choice not to take the risk. Why the distinction?

Originally Posted by KimJoonGi

But doing drugs (that the doctor says should not be taken during pregnancy. There is a reason drug-commercials have those disclaimers 'do not take while pregnant'. Do you think that's unfair and discriminate also?), smoking and drinking, then yeah, I think a woman should be charged with child endangerment for not risking the health of another. It's no longer 'just the women'. A woman who doesn't have a child is just a woman, therefore why would they be charged with endagering someone else if there isn't someone else? That 'it's not fair if they're not being charged for it before, but now they are' doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe you don't recognize that it's a child, baby, fetus, living thing. But that's what I believe it is, and based on that, is why I think it's endangering a life other than the parent now.

Cool, I guess. I disagree with you. So does the law.

"OMG it's so unfair!" Give me a break. I wouldn't care if it wasn't affecting the health of another. You know, kind of like bans on people smoking in public areas? It's the same concept.

Also, I'm not talking about shoulda, coulda, woulda-been pregnant women. I'm talking about pregnant women who are aware they are pregnant. You can't and shouldn't punish someone for not knowing, but if the woman is fully aware of their pregnancy, then maybe we should inform pregnant women of risks that they take. Things you can't help, like something that happens to be in food or the air, or your car, tuna cans, aluminum, fine. You can't help that.

But doing drugs (that the doctor says should not be taken during pregnancy. There is a reason drug-commercials have those disclaimers 'do not take while pregnant'. Do you think that's unfair and discriminate also?), smoking and drinking, then yeah, I think a woman should be charged with child endangerment for not risking the health of another. It's no longer 'just the women'. A woman who doesn't have a child is just a woman, therefore why would they be charged with endagering someone else if there isn't someone else? That 'it's not fair if they're not being charged for it before, but now they are' doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe you don't recognize that it's a child, baby, fetus, living thing. But that's what I believe it is, and based on that, is why I think it's endangering a life other than the parent now.

I agree with you. There is a high correlation between certain birth defects and alcoholic consumption. Women who are incredibly careful in their pregnancies don't drink alcohol because it's known to cause problems to a child later in life.

The constitution states that every person has the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. If a child is born with a birth defect that is a cause of the mother's drinking then it should be considered child abuse. You can't give a child alcohol when they're outside the womb, so why give it alcohol INSIDE the womb when the baby is much more vulnerable and reliant on its mother to keep it healthy. The thing selfish women don't understand is that when they're pregnant they're making future decisions about TWO people not one. A cell is life, we know these cells turn into living, breathing human beings and by destroying the cells in the womb you're destroying everything that would follow, including that human being. Calling an unborn baby a 'fetus' is just a way to justify murdering a child for selfish reasons. A baby is considered a 'person' when the baby can live outside the womb without the help of the mother, and quite frankly we don't know where that line is. Premies younger and younger are surviving and becoming healthy children. Damaging a child in any way should be considered child abuse and it should be dealt with as such.

Originally Posted by KimJoonGi

"OMG it's so unfair!" Give me a break. I wouldn't care if it wasn't affecting the health of another. You know, kind of like bans on people smoking in public areas? It's the same concept.

Also, I'm not talking about shoulda, coulda, woulda-been pregnant women. I'm talking about pregnant women who are aware they are pregnant. You can't and shouldn't punish someone for not knowing, but if the woman is fully aware of their pregnancy, then maybe we should inform pregnant women of risks that they take. Things you can't help, like something that happens to be in food or the air, or your car, tuna cans, aluminum, fine. You can't help that.

But doing drugs (that the doctor says should not be taken during pregnancy. There is a reason drug-commercials have those disclaimers 'do not take while pregnant'. Do you think that's unfair and discriminate also?), smoking and drinking, then yeah, I think a woman should be charged with child endangerment for not risking the health of another. It's no longer 'just the women'. A woman who doesn't have a child is just a woman, therefore why would they be charged with endagering someone else if there isn't someone else? That 'it's not fair if they're not being charged for it before, but now they are' doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe you don't recognize that it's a child, baby, fetus, living thing. But that's what I believe it is, and based on that, is why I think it's endangering a life other than the parent now.

But how are you going to enforce this? How are you going to enforce what a pregnant woman does in the privacy of her own home?
Whether or not one views it as a fetus or a parasite shouldn't matter. What matters is personal choice and free will. As a woman that has the opportunity to become pregnant, I want to have a choice. I want someone to say "yeah there are really stupid people out there, but lets have some faith that the good parents will be the responsible ones who don't do stupid things during pregnancy."
I guess my view is Survival of the Fittest. The Grand Design. Those that live are the ones that where meant to.