I've learned a new term while roleplaying. An old term actually - Mary Sue. The character that looks perfect, has a solution to everything, and has all the abilities in the world too. I've even run into Mary Sue characters while roleplaying, the most famous type being an elf that is royalty, a mage with unlimited energy and ability, faster, stronger, skilled in every fighting skill there is, has magical pets, and in some cases flies around too.

A Mary Sue was seen in Star Trek: The Next Generation with Wesley Crusher... the genius kid with no starfleet training but who had the answer to every problem that came along. This character is as old as time.

A Mary Sue was seen even in Mercedes Lackey's books... multiple times... but they usually died so we are all good.

However, before we all raise our hands and point out how much we dislike Mary Sue characters and how they ruin any chance for conflict (and thus the point of a story at all) I want to ask that unasked question: Is there a place and time for Mary Sue to exist?

Only when shown to training writers on who not to create as a character

That is definitely a place for Mary Sue. Have you ever seen a Mary Sue character PWEEP? On TV or in these forums?

Actually, I rather love the original Mary Sue story (star trek fanfiction). Of course, I love it because it's short and hilarious.

But I think there is definitely a place in fiction for this type of character, or at least something similar to it. It's actually quite an interesting concept to write a short story from the close pov of a dislikable character in order to show what an unreliable narrator he/she is and make the other characters seem wonderful even if the narrator describes them as horrible. I feel like I've seen that in something I've read for writing classes.

I like how you put that Kat. If you have a link to share, feel free to.

You know, now that I think about it... in Star Trek, the character Q was a Mary Sue...

I wish I had a link. Seems like something I picked up this idea from a book that had a collection of the best literary fiction short stories.

sooo....Star Trek is just a breeding ground for Mary Sues? Now I can understand why it was natural to write that original Mary Sue fic.

It sure seems that way. I think that a lot of anime creates Mary Sues during the major moments too. Miracles... things that shouldn't happen... but do because the main character suddenly has that power. Then people write fanfiction or roleplays and take an idea and throw it out of proportion.

I feel like mary sue in fanfiction has a somewhat different definition? It's more like...the character with a horrible past who everybody loves for some reason and, if applicable, is all powerful.

Fanfiction mary sues are on two extremes to me. Either they are really badly written in which case its so obvious the only reason they are getting anywhere is because they are this absolutely disgustingly perfect person with no character development whatsoever. Or they are actually well written and are only mary sues on accident. It's just so easy to write a mary sue character that sometimes fanfiction authors don't even realize they've written one. And then there's the occasional time when some readers just think every character is a mary sue for whatever reason.

In roleplaying, i don't think there's much room for a mary sue character. it just makes the roleplay itself rather dull and leaves no room for much improvement. and it could also be preventing other players from doing anything with their characters.

If you don't necessarily want all your characters to be believable, then a Mary-Sue may be appropriate. Generally speaking, you do want all your characters to be believable, but if you're writing a comedy of sorts and/or you're trying to make a point, you might not.

Aoi - I have done little with fanfiction itself, so the idea of an accidental Mary Sue is new to me. Interesting thought. With roleplaying, I have seen it used. It was in a group roleplay, we had planned out in the OOC thread to have some bad stuff happen with my character as the villain. The good character was making her way there when another person's character sped up the arrival. So the good character had a disaster happen that wiped out the transportation as well as killed some of her minions to slow the arrival so that I could do my evil deed. The other character suddenly had more magic than originally, had a pet that fixed the transportation, raised the dead people from life, healed the injured, and then her character magically saw my character, teleported from good character to my bad character, and stopped my evil deed before I did anything... successfully ending not just that conflict but the entire roleplay as well since the whole roleplay hinged on my character performing this one evil deed. It happens.

Vox - A comedy is a fun idea. I had not thought of that.

Ooh, i see. Yea, it happens :/

on that note, my friend actually sent me this link a while back. I found it amusing to read through, though i never completed it because it was such a long form, haha.

Mary Sue Litmus Test

And wow, mary sues really do have the longest names i feel. and the same could apply to the opposite sex, gary stues as well. though...uhm...i probably spelled that wrong

Hahah, see? You could totally use Jasmyne Rose Silverlight in a comedy. xD

That is a really good link :) You know it would be fun to use this to create a Mary Sue ^_^

So what exactly is the overlap/connexion between a mary-sue as described above, and an author surrogate? I don't know much about these things, not a roleplayer or interested in fanfiction...

Ah Mary Sue * u *

Let me start by linking to these articles. (Tvtropes how I love you) They more or less cover all the different definitions of what a Mary Sue is, all the different types of Mary Sue (yup there are differences) and some of the common traits that define a character as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu
Mary Sue - Television Tropes & Idioms
Common Mary Sue Traits - Television Tropes & Idioms

I'm not much of a roleplayer but in terms of roleplay I've always found Mary Sues to be more or less equaling God Modding. Or along that same vein.

I'm mostly a fanfiction writer so I've seen this term thrown around alot.
Mary Sues have a place in:

Comedies/Parodies Also known as the Parody Sue
Learning how to improve (I agree with Aoi, that sometimes it's so easy to write a Mary Sue that you don't realize it. I started off writing Mary Sues and as I grew older and looked back at my work I realized these characters aren't realistic in any form or way)
Self-insert/Fulfilling your id/these should never see the light of day. (It's okay to dream that you are a character in your favorite tv show and hooking up with the hottest character on the show, canon relationship be damn but if you're trying to be a better writer these are better off never seeing the light of day)

For me, in terms of fanfictions the definition of Mary Sue has always been defined as:
A character who is "perfect" without flaws, a tragic/complicated backstory usually related to major character, and always gets the love interest (and corrects whatever flaws the love interest may have) and the story is all about her.

Using Pokemon as an example a Mary Sue would to me would be a Susan Ketchum, Ash's older sister who became a Pokemon Master at age 17, never lost a battle and feel in love with Brock and stopped his womanizing ways. Instead of writing about Ash's adventures, Ash gets shoved into a backseat and Susan is the one who saves the day, who beats Team Rockets, who gets the new pokemon, etc.

(That was really painful to write). 90% of the time if the summary in a fanfiction says "sister of the main character" I back away really fast.

In original fictions though, it's harder to recognize. Most of the time if it's well written you won't even notice. Other times it's an accidental and a result of being a Boring Hero technically. When you think about a Hero that always wins is kinda set up to be a Mary Sue.

I should also state that it isn't bad for some characters to be Mary Sues. Allow me introduce what some animes/mangas call the Yamato Nadeshiko. This is a character type is to bluntly put it, the ideal Japanese woman who is quiet, gentle, kind, cooks and cleans well, a proper lady and a perfect wife. Look at the Dark Magical Girl. Super powerful? Check! Dark and Tragic Past? Check! Wants everyone to love her? Check! Becomes a good guy at the end? Check! Is she a Mary Sue? Sure sounds like one. But if you write her well, it won't even matter if she has some of those traits.

For me, it basically comes down is to, is the character perfect or idealized by everyone in some form or way? If yes, you probably have a Mary Sue. If no, then does your character have flaws and fears? Are they realistic flaws/fears and are they ever shown? Is your character believable (for the world they live in)?

@Biggles
There are some overlaps in my opinion. It depends on how the character is handled basically (that's how I feel about it). Let me link you to the Author Avatar page too.


.... I feel like I said too much. *goes back to hiding under a rock* Sorry for the wall of text.

I love your wall of text! God Modding is definitely the right term for what my understanding of a Mary Sue in roleplaying is. I feel like I have learned something today and that is a good feeling after the blandness of... other times.

Ahaha. I debate this with myself a lot. See for some reason my OCs have a nasty habit of slipping into my fanfictions (usually as small cameos) and it's always the challenge of "Can I write an Original Character in this fandom that is not a Mary Sue?" I like to think I've come a long way from when I first started. Most reviewers have stated they like the original characters too so plus plus?

Haha I'm glad you learned something though.

I am a fan of creating characters that are different. My favorite character trait is a character that, upon hearing music, is drawn towards it and unable to hear or do anything else but listen and enjoy the music.

I'm actually trying to stop create characters. Have too many. Need to focus on the existing ones firsts. xD

I usually create a new character for each roleplay that I do. Though lately I've had a strange attachment to the name Saber. I like my blades too much I think.

I have a character name Sabre, and I think we had discuss about that somewhere... XD

Mary Sue.
Any definition of Mary Sue is always extreme on one side like. Past = tragic, talent = top, looks = prettiest... etc.
BUT, they can't be the opposite at the same time. So whatever is their advantage, COULD end up being their disadvantage, so at the end I don't think there are such characters that can be that 'flawless'.

Yes, those characters DO have a place. It really depends on how the story goes~
People said it is boring to have Mary Sue, saying it is hard to make Mary Sue work a good story... well, but isn't that a challenge in itself to make a good story out of a Mary Sue character?

Different take on opinion.

That is a different take. I guess my biggest challenge with roleplaying with a Mary Sue character was there was no conflict. Nothing in life was hard or challenging because that one character made life easy for everyone else. There was no point to roleplaying that story because all you did was smile and say thank you to one character. In a way, there was no living.

Well, Create a conflict.
if the Mary Sue is too pretty. Then create a situation that only the NON pretty people get chosen to some kind of task.
if the Mary Sue is too smart. Then create a situation that need less bright people to perform.

I can think of a situation for the first one.
I read about some certain people do not like their assistant to be prettier than them. I find that pretty interesting. The story setting was on olden days, very sexist days. Where the mistress do not like their maid to be prettier than them.

Well, the point is, it is challenging. XD
I am not sure...
when student didn't manage to get A after studying so much, some people still blame them for not working hard enough.
Similar could apply here, writer didn't manage to work a GOOD story for Mary Sue, it could be because of not working hard enough.
On the other hand, the other normal type of characters people found no problem with is actually easy challenge. That also depends on whether you want to challenge it or not. So I am thinking, writer don't like Mary Sue characters, is it because they cannot 'conquer' them?

Back to topic, yes, I am sure Mary Sue do still have a place even in common storylines. Most of the time, they are just passerby minor characters.

The problem wasn't so much the plotline. We had a plotline we wanted to follow. Goals to meet. Everyone created their characters for the roleplay in preparation. Then one person took her character and took out the conflict by taking out me. Then you have 5 people, each with multiple characters, with no world to save... because Mary Sue had saved it already. It was God Modding at it's finest.

Oh lol. XD In that case I don't know what you people plan out. XD
as for RP, because it is played by different people, which is why i don't like it. I prefer to GOD mod my own characters, storyline and settings.
Being in a group may contribute into a multiple interesting perspectives and angle and ideas.... but I am always tired of waiting for people, wanted to nitpick on certain details but didn't do so because of caring other people's sensitive feeling... and so on. *sighs*

I think though, your RP problem with that God Modding is not the problem of the Mary Sue. XD It does sound more like the RP planning not good enough, sounds to me. (which mean I am blaming the human that RP it, not the character. XD)