When it comes to a battle of the wills, kids with stubborn wills can learn to not mind doing without just about anything. For those kids, there's only one thing that means anything to them: pain. It is the one thing they can't just shrug off, and spanking, for those kids, is probably the only thing that will save them from a whole lifetime of trouble and misery, doing whatever the heck they feel like doing.

When we're older, we can control ourselves based on arguments of reason. But when we're younger, we only see what we think is some immediate good (whether it really is good or not), and we go for it. Authority, for many kids, ends up being "those jerks who won't let me have any fun". The problem is, the (sane) parents really DO know better, and while 13 year old Johnny may not understand why he can't walk the streets with his buddies till 2 am, or 12 year old Jenny can't comprehend why mom just doesn't approve of the 16 year old she thinks loves her to death, the parents are right. The kids, unfortunately, will go full speed ahead into just about any mess that begins with something that SEEMS good or fun, unless something outside of themselves stops them.

All the other punishments don't amount to a hill of beans for some kids. They get to the place where they simply don't care. They can do without any of their "toys" for a while, and if they're grounded, they'll just sneak out knowing mom and dad won't do anything that they can't brush off. But when Johnny gets picked up by the cops, or Jenny gets assaulted by her "prince" it's going to be a lot worse for them than a spanking or two when they were younger would have been.

Kids who get spanked (for the right kinds of things) are more likely to learn that there are limits, and there is authority that they don't have a right to question. When they're older, they'll be glad they didn't question it. In the meantime, though, they learn to behave themselves, and more importantly, they learn the self control that they will need their whole lives.

Yeah, there are exceptions to every rule... the parents who think spanking means a gentle tap (which amounts to nothing), or the kids who are just hell-bent on being brats and destroying their lives for the sake of being defiant. But for most normal, sane kids, spanking is a good thing that teaches them important lessons about real life (where the consequences will be those they can't just get out of or brush off), and it equips them to have a much happier life, living with the ability they learned to control themselves and not just do whatever they feel like doing (which is often not a good thing).

You'd be surprised, but there are those adults out there now who will say, "boy I resented the heck out of my parents spanking me when I was a kid, but now I'm grown up, I wish they'd been even more strict. It would've saved me a lot of trouble." Finally they realize that often times what they wanted to do as a kid or teen ended up hurting them and being a lot more humiliating to them in the long run than anything their parents would have done to them.

In life you can't be happy unless you can control yourself and keep yourself from doing dangerous, unhealthy and idiotic things. If you refuse to learn how to do that as a kid, your life will probably be one self-inflicted disaster or degradation after another. There's nothing worse than being a slave to your passions. It's worse even than being an animal. When an animal follows their instincts, they do what is good for them and their race. When a human being follows their passions and not their reason, they usually end up doing self destructive things, which ultimately hurts those around them, too.

The one thing I've learned, is that spanking or using pain for discipline does not give respect. It instills fear.

Once the fear is gone, then there's really nothing holding the kid back, is there? And wha tof the kids with exceptionally strong wills? Not even pain would bring them down, and heck, it makes them stand even firmer. I'm one of those kids, actually.

Originally Posted by Alexandrus Gambino

The one thing I've learned, is that spanking or using pain for discipline does not give respect. It instills fear.

Once the fear is gone, then there's really nothing holding the kid back, is there? And wha tof the kids with exceptionally strong wills? Not even pain would bring them down, and heck, it makes them stand even firmer. I'm one of those kids, actually.

No offense to you, but if I had a kid and virtually nothing worked--even spankings, I would be done with that child for good. They could sit in foster care after that because at that point the child would be, in my eyes, immune to everything.

Sure. We're not supposed to give up on children, but it seems that children can give up on us as parents though it's they that cause problems and refuse to see it.

Not every child responds to pain as punishment. =/ I was a really active kid so I ended up hurting myself all the time anyways (on accident of course) and I have a high pain tolerance, so had my parents taken the physical approach on punishments I would probably have just become bitter rather than be too afraid of getting spanked. But I know that's not true for every child, which is why you have to adapt accordingly to your child's needs.

For instance, my parents tried using the "go to your room" punishment for a while, which was really effective for my brother who craves attention and social interaction, but was completely ineffective for me since I would just go in my room and play with toys like I usually would.

I agree that the effectiveness of spanking depends on the child. For many children (including myself, way back when) the infliction of pain was a basic betrayal of trust. My mom spanked me once, and never could bring herself to do it again; my dad used spanking for years, right up until I told him that I would not be spanked anymore, and ultimately moved out of his house.

I'm still torn on this issue though... it seems to me that if you're old enough to decide that you don't want physical reprimands and you're old enough to think you're grown up, then you're old enough to stop doing things that aren't good ideas in the first place... or move out and bring trouble to someone else's household or your own.

Originally Posted by Cheya

I'm still torn on this issue though... it seems to me that if you're old enough to decide that you don't want physical reprimands and you're old enough to think you're grown up, then you're old enough to stop doing things that aren't good ideas in the first place... or move out and bring trouble to someone else's household or your own.

Sure, but the underlying assumption - that parents always punish their children for good reasons, and never in excess - is flawed. Spanking is easy. It's not hard to start falling back on it every time the kid refuses to get off the computer 'till they've checked their email or lies about having finished all their homework.

Originally Posted by Doomfishy

Sure, but the underlying assumption - that parents always punish their children for good reasons, and never in excess - is flawed. Spanking is easy. It's not hard to start falling back on it every time the kid refuses to get off the computer 'till they've checked their email or lies about having finished all their homework.

I'm sure it seems like to you that I'm making the assumption that there are NO bad parents, but the reality is, I'm NOT focusing on the bad parents. I will state it now so there is no intentional misunderstandings: bad parents NEED jail time and corrective courses for their behaviors. Hopefully I'm not the only one that feels that way about bad parents.

However, for parents that have bad children that continuously do bad things and finally decide they don't want any reprimand without giving up their bad behaviors, I feel they should move out and be someone else's problem.

It's hard to have to try provide for someone and all that while being unappreciated, disrespected, lied to and other thing and still come out smiling like nothing wrong and that you weren't regretting not getting an abortion. A lot of minors don't realize that it's NO picnic being a parent.

Originally Posted by Cheya

I'm sure it seems like to you that I'm making the assumption that there are NO bad parents, but the reality is, I'm NOT focusing on the bad parents. I will state it now so there is no intentional misunderstandings: bad parents NEED jail time and corrective courses for their behaviors. Hopefully I'm not the only one that feels that way about bad parents.

However, for parents that have bad children that continuously do bad things and finally decide they don't want any reprimand without giving up their bad behaviors, I feel they should move out and be someone else's problem.

It's hard to have to try provide for someone and all that while being unappreciated, disrespected, lied to and other thing and still come out smiling like nothing wrong and that you weren't regretting not getting an abortion. A lot of minors don't realize that it's NO picnic being a parent.

I just don't think it's all that black and white. You don't necessarily have to be a bad parent to overuse spanking and end up pushing a sensitive child away. You don't necessarily have to be a bad child to act out. Having a difficult time of parenting does not change the fact that certain forms of punishment don't work and/or can damage the relationship with certain children. I certainly think it's possible to MISUSE spanking as a punishment without being technically abusive. Almost everyone draws the line between excessive punishment and abuse differently, which is one of the reasons the debate on this topic is so contentious. Ask a group of child abusers if THEY think what they did was abuse - what do you think you'll hear?

It's my personal opinion that if a child is constantly trying to escape their relationship with one or both parents, that child has been failed. It's not always the parents' fault, but it is what it is. Ultimately, the burden of responsibility falls on the parents - the adults - to keep that relationship healthy. An eight-year-old can't bear that weight. Neither can the average adolescent in the peak of hormonal activity.

@Doomfishy: Agreed. What gets me is the parents who start of pretty lax on their children but as they get older they crack down on every little thing. I don't think I've every really met someone who was raised that way and came out better because of it.

Some parents also mistake natural adolescent rebellion as a situation that warrants a "ZOMG, I have to stop this madness!" attitude. It's a shame when kids are just trying to find their way in the world, often not even doing "bad" things, but the parent flips out and tries to reel them in.

*sigh* Is there a way I can reword and people will actually comprehend it?

I'm talking about bad children.... ones that don't learn. Ones that make you wish you had aborted or sent them away. The ones that take your existence as a provider for granted. The ones, that no form of punishment (physical or otherwise) will work.

Those children exist.

Yes, but I think I'd be hard pressed not to find some evidence that the way they were raised helped shape them into a terrible child. If a parent fails to punish their child while they are young, it's often much less effective to start punishing them when they're older. So then the parent is left with a bratty/mouthy child wondering, "Why is nothing working?"

Not saying that's how it is in every case though, but I have seen some instances where that appears true. Also, some children have mental/behavior issues that may cause them to act out. Rather than resort to violence, I'd probably consult professional help if I felt my child was becoming out of control. Children may also act out if they've been abused.

I'm sure there truly are some "bad seeds" out there too who have been "bad" for pretty much their whole lives, but I think they account for just a very small percentage.

Question:

Why are people so quick to make excuses for the bad behaviors of minors?

My guess is because it's usually pretty easy to see some correlation between how they behave and the way they were raised, their environment, and/or mental health. Not saying everything can be explained away since it's not that simple, but you can't tell me that most adults ended up how they did without being significantly influenced by those three (and other) factors.

I'm not saying that, but I think people NEED to stop giving them the okay for their behaviors because of a pity story. A person needs to understand what they did and why it's wrong--being a child shouldn't be an exception.

Before anyone tries to put words in my post again (don't even think of doing this), I'm NOT saying physical punishment. I'm not very liberal on physical punishments--OKAY?

Originally Posted by Cheya

Question:

Why are people so quick to make excuses for the bad behaviors of minors?

Children are simply far more easily influenced by their surroundings than adults, and frankly, they lack the mental and personal development to shield themselves from negative influences.

Is it worse to tell a child that they're worthless than to tell an adult?

I think most of us can agree that it is. An adult might be hurt, but they're expected to brush off a comment like that and move on. A child depends on the adults in their lives in ways that don't exist in adulthood, and being called worthless can be devastating.

There's a reason we expect more from a teenager than a younger child, and more from an adult than either.

That being said, there are certainly situations where the parents aren't at all to blame - I'm thinking of kids with Conduct Disorder who go on to develop Antisocial Personality Disorder. Even so, I can't think of a scenario where kicking out a mentally ill child for being a 'bad kid' would help him or her.

@Cheya: I don't think I ever said that children shouldn't be punished even if their actions are a result of pitiable circumstances. Certainly letting a child get away with everything just because you sympathize with them doesn't help things. However, the example you gave was a child who does not respond to punishment at all.

What you said made it sound like "bad kids" happen and there's nothing we can do about it, which while agree that sometimes that is the case, usually for mental reasons like Doomfishy mentioned, there are usually factors that lead to that point. So if you were the caregiver to a child all their life and the child turns out to be what you would define as a "bad child", there's probably a number of factors that led to this result. In many cases I would say it's preventable, but at that point you may need to seek professional help.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth; I'm just trying to explain why I responded in that way.

Originally Posted by Cheya

I'm not saying that, but I think people NEED to stop giving them the okay for their behaviors because of a pity story. A person needs to understand what they did and why it's wrong--being a child shouldn't be an exception.

Before anyone tries to put words in my post again (don't even think of doing this), I'm NOT saying physical punishment. I'm not very liberal on physical punishments--OKAY?

Where did anyone say it wasn't okay to punish children?

I do think children are less responsible for their actions than adults, but that doesn't mean it does them any good to allow them to continue their bad behaviors.

I think spanking is totally normal for children. Some children do need to receive physical discipline if they are a bit too disrespectful to their parents. If I wasn't kept in line, I would be an such an awful person.

@ Omiruku: Sorry to say but I am a horrible person BECAUSE of physical reprimands. The whole spanking thing is the complete reason why I trust very VERY few people. And my parents are honestly not one of those people.

Smack them for anything you don't want them doing. Never hit them when you're impaired though. Drunk, high, sleepy, whatever, don't do it, because you can't know exaaaactly how hard your hitting them so you shouldn't hit them at all. Spanking just seems weird. It doesn't ache or anything when spanked. At least not for long. And it's too sexual for me. Or too sexual in my opinion.

...sexual? Well yeah, it can be. But it depends on how it's done. A light swat to a moderate slap is sexual. Parental punishment in the form of a spank though...ANYTHING but sexual when done right.

Lol, sexual xD

*ahem* Every child is different, so it's up to the parent to figure out which punishment works out best for a kid. Some respond better to social deprivation [time-out], while some others respond better to pain [spanking]. And hell, there are even those angels who forget the idea of ever doing the offense again by just a sermon.

I do agree that it can sometimes be over-used, but that's why a parent has to determine the correct dosage. Just because 12 cups of coffee can cause a seizure doesn't mean it should be banned from commercialization ;)

So to spank or not to spank, an option but not a rule.

it's a lacking of discipline that is the reason that children and young teens (no offense if some of you are) are such obnoxious brats.

Teachers aren't allowed to discipline children in school. Parents expect teachers to do the parenting. It's passive parenting. Throw them in front of a tv, video game, whatever you have to do to not be engaged in your child's life.

And then when something happens, it's "there's too much violence on tv/in videogames!" how about monitoring your child? Taking an active role in governing (to a reasonable extent) what they are doing?

So, then you have these kids, who will sass you and give you problems, because nobody's disciplined them at home, and they're used to not listening to their parents (or even telling their parents what to do).

I do believe in spanking. Because I've seen kids today, and it makes me shake my head. And I know someone, who said "my dad hit me when I did stupid stuff. And you know what? That's the stuff I never tried again.

You have no idea how many times I've seen a kid misbehaving in public, and the parent will just sit there idly and watch them, doing nothing. Makes me wish that *I* could smack their kid and teach them a lesson, since they're obviously not doing anything.

It's a frustrating topic. I agree.

I fully support spanking children. Thats how I was raised. Every child I meet these days is a horrible little brat who has no idea how to behave well. Theyve been given everything, and have no boundaries. Its sad. :(